EP250: The Leadership Crisis Hiding Behind an AI Strategy
Jens Heitland and leadership expert Faris Aranki discuss how AI is reshaping organizational structure.
Why senior leaders must engage with technology firsthand, and how human connection remains the foundation of resilient, high-performing teams.
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The Leadership Crisis Hiding Behind an AI Strategy
I was in London last week, sitting across from Faris Aranki (*), and this was our third podcast together. That alone tells you something about the quality of our conversations. We got into territory that I think a lot of leaders are sitting with quietly right now, and I wanted to put it down in writing because it deserves more than a short clip from a podcast episode.
The core of what we discussed: the gap between making decisions about AI and actually using it yourself.
The Hide and Seek Problem
Faris works directly with senior executive teams at large organizations, helping them align on strategy and work better together. He described something I found both funny and uncomfortable: walking into senior rooms where leaders are making big decisions on AI but are not actually using it themselves. You can sense it in the room. They are talking about something they do not fully understand.
He put it well: you do not need to be an expert at your car, but you should at least know the main parts and have actually sat in it and driven it. The bar is not an expert. It is basic contact with the thing you are making decisions about.
What struck me was his description of leaders nearing the end of their careers. He compared them to a child learning hide-and-seek for the first time: close your eyes and hope it does not catch you before you retire. That is genuinely happening in boardrooms right now.
The Metrics Trap
I brought up something I had heard the week before: the NVIDIA CEO apparently measures how many tokens his top engineers consume and expects their usage to exceed their salary in token value. Anyone falling short gets a direct conversation.
Faris made a distinction I had not thought about in those terms before. In the early days of adopting anything new, measuring inputs makes sense. You want momentum and tracking usage creates it. But that is not where a successful business stays. If you are the person who gets the job done in one shot, you should not be penalized for using fewer tokens than someone else. The only thing that matters, eventually, is output.
This matters because how you measure shapes how people behave. Leaders who have not used these tools personally are not well-positioned to design the right frameworks for their teams.
Distributing Decisions More Intelligently
Faris shared a model he uses with executive teams that I think more organizations should be using. He separates decisions into three levels.
Gold decisions require full team input. Silver decisions get outsourced to one person within the group. Bronze decisions should not involve the senior team at all. They should be delegated down into the business.
The problem is that senior teams constantly step into bronze conversations. AI makes this worse because some leaders have run ahead of their colleagues in personal adoption and now hold knowledge asymmetrically. A little knowledge unevenly distributed inside a team can create more friction than no knowledge at all.
AI governance is not just a technology question. It is a decision rights question, and those need to be made explicit.
Shadow Boards and the Knowledge Gap Between Generations
The idea that stayed with me most from our conversation was shadow boards. Faris described it as a parallel group, composed of younger employees who receive the same information as the executive committee. Both groups meet at the same time. Afterward, you compare the outputs.
The question is not who made better decisions. It is: what did they discuss that we never even thought to raise?
I think the next wave of AI fluency will come from younger people who have the time and openness to go deep into this. The challenge is not to hand them the keys before they are ready, but to build structures that channel their perspective into the rooms where the real decisions get made. Shadow boards are one way to do that.
The Human Atrophy Risk
As AI takes over more of the functional work of communication, writing, and analysis, we lose the muscle for basic human interaction. Faris described going into a company where two departments had real hostility between them. One person had sent a carefully worded email. When Faris asked whether he had simply walked over and talked to the other team, the person looked at him like that was a strange idea. That is not an outlier. It is becoming the default.
I said it directly in our conversation, and I will say it here: in a moment defined by technological disruption, ongoing conflicts, polarized information, and rapid organizational change, the companies that stay focused on being human are the ones that will hold together under pressure. The ones that optimize away human contact in the name of efficiency may find, when they actually need to rely on their people, that the foundation is not there.
Learning to use AI is table stakes. The harder work is building the human foundation that makes your organization worth leading in the first place.
Faris Aranki is the founder of Shiageto Consulting. Find him at shiageto.com or on LinkedIn. The Daily Hint with Jens Heitland is produced by Heitland Media Group.
Guest Links
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Business: https://www.shiageto.com/
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Transcript
[00:00:00] Jens Heitland: Faris, amazing to see you again in person.
[00:00:03] Faris Aranki: Yes.
[00:00:04] Jens Heitland: It's great to be in London.
[00:00:05] Faris Aranki: Yeah, podcast number three, Jens. Nobody gets three slices of Faris. Yeah. Thank you very much for that. No, no, no. Thank you, thank you. It's great to, not only be on your podcast, but for you to come to London and see you and catch up.
[00:00:17] Jens Heitland: Yeah. It's always, always good to meet up for beers and podcasts.
[00:00:20] Faris Aranki: And podcasts.
[00:00:21] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:00:21] Faris Aranki: Podcasts. The
[00:00:22] Jens Heitland: combination is
[00:00:23] Faris Aranki: good. The combo, yeah. Everyone out there should combine the two. Ag-
[00:00:25] Jens Heitland: agree.
[00:00:26] Faris Aranki: Yeah.
[00:00:27] Jens Heitland: Now, so, so one thing I really would love to explore with you is all the things that are happening in the world right now.
We have wars that go on. Yeah. We have huge technical, technology transformation if we take AI as one of the many things, and they're all impacting us as humans, but also the way, like, the behaviors that we have plus how organizations are, might look like in the future. So I would love to explore that with you because you're one of the experts when it comes to the, to the leadership and human part of organizations.
[00:00:59] Faris Aranki: Absolutely. I think, I think you learn more about a leader, about a person during tough times
[00:01:04] Jens Heitland: Agreed ...
[00:01:05] Faris Aranki: than during good times, right? Yeah. And the world at the moment is pretty tough. All that volatility that you're talking about. We're really finding out the good leaders, the good work colleagues, the good friends, and even people are learning that about themselves.
Yeah. You know, 'cause we all carry an image of how we think we'll be during these times.
[00:01:22] Jens Heitland: For me, it's just if we start with the tech part, I mean, that's just getting started.
[00:01:28] Faris Aranki: Yeah.
[00:01:28] Jens Heitland: It, if we take AI as an example, I mean, I'm just exploring this like we talked yesterday. Like, building my own agent and building a network of agents that can do literally already a lot that just two years ago could only be done by humans in an organization.
Yeah. And I mean, I have a small business, so I don't need to fire anyone, I don't need to retrain anyone. But just the pure opportunity with that technology, if that will hit large organizations, there will be huge changes, plus, at least my perspective, the leadership role will change or not change.
I don't know. What's, what's your view on that? Oh,
[00:02:10] Faris Aranki: I mean, absolutely the leadership role will change. It'll change during the transition, right? It's a change program. You've gotta lead strongly. You've got to get others to follow. It'll change as a result. You know, you could potentially be left with less communication with your team if everything is optimized and
you know, you don't need to check in with people. You don't need to sense check, and that's really difficult for a leader. A lot of good leadership comes from contact time. But not in the sense that, actually, that was a really interesting consequence of the COVID and people working from home.
A lot of leaders felt they'd lost their ability 'cause they weren't seeing people. Yeah. So it's, it's that on steroids, it could be. Um, so, uh, uh, and for the leaders themselves, is their job gonna still be there? Yeah. You know, I see a lot of leaders at the moment who may be towards the end of their career kind of doing like a child when they first learn to play hide and seek.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're like, "If I close my eyes, this won't catch me. Maybe I can just ride it out until I retire and not actually have to embrace it." And so it's, it's amazing how many senior rooms I w- uh, walk into where they are making big decis- big decisions on AI but aren't necessarily using it themselves.
[00:03:18] Jens Heitland: Ah. Yeah. Yeah. That's difficult because they have not... I mean, even if it's on a user base, they should at least understand or- Yeah ... dig a little bit deeper into it.
[00:03:26] Faris Aranki: Yeah. You'd think you'd have a bit of a... Okay, not everyone needs to be an expert at their car, but they should at least know, you know, the main parts of it
and, and have sat in it and have tested it. And it's the same with AI. So, um, yeah, you know, it's gonna impact the workforce, gonna impact the leaders. It's... We're already seeing it. And so it's how do you help with that transition? What's the changes people need to adopt? Um, and as with anything leadership, it starts with yourself.
[00:03:52] Jens Heitland: Yeah. How is it with the organization that you work with? We don't need to n- uh, put names on the table. Yeah. But are they looking into the transition? Are they looking, like, what's happening the next two years?
[00:04:02] Faris Aranki: Absolutely.
[00:04:03] Jens Heitland: And how does our organization need to look different if it needs to look different?
[00:04:07] Faris Aranki: Yeah. So just for context, uh, you know, I'm, I'm not, uh, egotistical to think people have watched our previous two podcasts together. Oh, yeah. So the kind of work I do is with big corporate senior teams around, um, strategy, uh, how they work well together, achieving their goals, so that's where the leadership side comes.
So pretty much every client, big or small, is looking at AI as part of their corporate strategy. How can we get value from it?
[00:04:31] Jens Heitland: Hm.
[00:04:31] Faris Aranki: Either because they are early adopters or they wanna get value, or they're scared their competitors are using it. Yeah. But it's in every conversation. So, and that's where I'm seeing that, you know, you can see people talking about something, but you can sense in the room they're not really understanding.
And so then in those situations, um, there's a need for them to get a minimum level of knowledge, and that's something I try and help them with. Yeah, create a safe environment. It's incredibly hard as a leader, as a senior person, to admit you're bad at something-
[00:05:02] Jens Heitland: Yeah ...
[00:05:02] Faris Aranki: and have a n- safe enough space to learn about that topic.
Um, so how can you create that without them looking like a, um, you know, falling flat on their face? Um, but then also helping them realize who are the people they need to tap into to get that knowledge, you know? How much trust, uh, because everyone out there is gonna try and sell you a solution, is, will promise the, uh, AI, um, landscape.
It can be very confusing for a leader when you've also got to make decisions on everything else that's out there.
[00:05:34] Jens Heitland: Yeah, and going to the point that if, if you don't go into it yourself, which I understand if you, let's say at the end of your career and you got to, to the position that you have- Yeah
with the past knowledge, and it, it brought you so far, and now start restarting to relearning-
[00:05:51] Faris Aranki: Yeah ...
[00:05:51] Jens Heitland: something, it's always difficult. And then imagining even what could the future look like, some people are just not willing to do it or uncomfortable at least.
[00:06:02] Faris Aranki: Yeah. Y- you think about your own life.
Uh, there's times when you're... a- and this is to anyone out there, there's times when you're more up for change, and there's times you're like, "I'm exhausted." Yeah. "Do I have to learn another tech? Do I have to pick up and, you know, go again, go again?" So, and, and in any team, everyone's at a d- a different stage and, but they don't talk about
[00:06:21] Jens Heitland: it.
Yeah.
[00:06:21] Faris Aranki: It's not like they say at the start of a, "All right, AI's on the table. Everybody come up and score where we are on the change matrix. How up for you, up for this are you?" Yeah, yeah. Because even if you did do that, the people who are only one or two are gonna be scared out of their minds to actually show that to everyone else.
They'll be like, "Oh, God, I'm, I'll be the one who, you know, be in the firing line." So there's all these aspects. Um, and it, as with any change program, how much are you up for it? Um, what's your level of knowledge? How quickly can you pick up the skills? Um, and, and we're not saying everyone needs to be an expert out there, right?
Have a bit of in- uh, information, but then identify who the expert is, right? How much trust. So many times in teams, senior teams that I see, and this is going a bit tangential, everyone wants to be involved in every decision.
[00:07:02] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:07:03] Faris Aranki: That, no, no organization can, can do that, no. It's
[00:07:06] Jens Heitland: not possible.
[00:07:07] Faris Aranki: It's not possible.
So the best organizations, the best leadership groups I work with allocate decisions. Almost like these are gold level decisions: okay, we need everyone's input. These are silver level decisions: we're just gonna outsource it to one person out of the eight of us. These are bronze: none of us should be involved with.
Yeah. It should be delegated down the business. We shouldn't be deciding which cleaner we use, what color to paint the walls. These are not exec level conversations, but it's amazing how often they step into- Yeah. I know ... those conversations.
[00:07:35] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:07:35] Faris Aranki: And so just having that conversation, listing, uh, uh, all those decisions, and it should be the same on AI.
Because the thing about AI, because it is exciting for some people, some people have gone off like a rabbit and started learning a lot about it. And, with the greatest respect in the world, that can be a dangerous thing if you're someone with a bit of knowledge and being slightly ahead of everyone else.
[00:07:55] Jens Heitland: Do you then think that an organization, like, if we take an org chart as one of the examples, is that going to shift? Is that going to change with technology taking over a lot of, let's say even jobs or tasks?
[00:08:08] Faris Aranki: Or
[00:08:09] Jens Heitland: potentially, I have no idea.
[00:08:11] Faris Aranki: I, I remember, you know, 15 years ago, uh, I was at a consulting firm and we were trying to sell a lot of RPA, robotic process optimization.
Mm. And the guys who were leading on that, they would often show these org charts with robots in them saying, "Oh no, there'll be Dave the robot. He'll be just like a member of your team. Right? You'll treat him like a member of your team. You'll check in with him in the morning." And it looked really weird on these org charts, and you could always see the clients look confused like
you know, "Are we gonna get a physical robot?" No, it's just a terminal. And even... So I don't think it was accepted then. I think we're still a way from where we'll see robots on org charts, or AI on org charts. And I think it'll be a while before we see disappearing of roles. I mean, volume of roles might go, but
you still need... We're still at a stage with AI, from what I, my experience, that you need sense checking and, and, and I will say. Um, it will be, the org charts may be thinner, but I don't think we're gonna lose any traditional roles at the moment.
[00:09:13] Jens Heitland: W- with that, as a, as a leader, do I then need to learn to lead differently?
[00:09:19] Faris Aranki: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Uh, well, I mean, it, it, the same principles come back, you know, around good leadership, but you need to have an open mind. You need to, um, you know, depending how much you're gonna embrace AI, and you, and you need to embrace AI. And again, I'm not the AI expert here in the room. No. But you need to be challenging people to use it, but how do you go about that challenge, right?
We've seen some famous cases that say, "If you're not doing this, you're sacked." Yeah. You know, I, and I don't know, I see these pop up on, on social media. I don't know if they're a joke or not, you know? "I turned off our subscription to, uh, ChatGPT, and anyone who didn't complain got fired." Right? If anyone who didn't realize.
Yeah. You're like, that's not a great leadership style. That kind of... I get it. It's immediate and maybe you're doing that to tell the story afterwards, but don't lose your fundamental human connections, strategic decision-making, lighting a fire under people.
[00:10:19] Jens Heitland: Well, it's interesting to that point, the NVIDIA CEO, I think it was last week, said in a podcast conversation that they're measuring how many tokens the top engineers are using and if they're not using at least double their salary in tokens, then they're not utilizing the tools, in their case, AI,
[00:10:38] Faris Aranki: Yeah
[00:10:39] Jens Heitland: in a proper way, and then he will have a discussion with them.
[00:10:41] Faris Aranki: I mean, yeah. That's a case in point, right? Make what you want of that, but, uh, I think we were talking about this last night with our own businesses. Yeah. So much early days of early adoption of anything you measure inputs. How many tokens am I burning?
Yeah. You know, how much, how many business meetings am I having? How many, how much time I'm putting in? Great when you want to get momentum into something. But ultimately, if your business is still being measured on that, it's not a successful business. No. It should be outputs, outputs, outputs. So who cares how many tokens you burn?
If you, if you are the g- genius who can get a prompt or get something done in one shot, and I'm not saying you can, right? Don't be overconfident.
[00:11:16] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:11:16] Faris Aranki: Then you shouldn't be penalized 'cause you didn't use as many tokens as Bob over here who-
[00:11:21] Jens Heitland: No, 100% agree. But a- a- again, the interesting he- thing is with all these changes-
[00:11:26] Faris Aranki: Yeah
[00:11:27] Jens Heitland: metrics are changing, and we, we as leaders need to retool ourselves or need to rethink how do we measure success. Yeah. What are the different things? Yeah. And then as well, help our team members to go through these transitions because the changes that are coming, if they come from AI or from a war or something else, they're always coming.
I think that's what one of the topics we discussed in the first podcast that we did.
[00:11:50] Faris Aranki: Yeah.
[00:11:50] Jens Heitland: And we, we, we need to get people comfortable with these changes because they're just more rapidly.
[00:11:57] Faris Aranki: Uh, well, yeah. It comes back to that change, right? Change fatigue. Where are you on the chart? Yeah. A- as the leader, you've got to make decisions on behalf of your organization.
Which, which change are we gonna go all in on? Because i- in theory, AI has the power to change every division, every function in your business. Doesn't mean you should.
[00:12:15] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:12:15] Faris Aranki: All right? Right. You and I are both runners. Y- you know, the c- the classic thing in running is don't change too much on race day.
[00:12:22] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:12:22] Faris Aranki: Right? And for most companies, every day is the race day, so don't change your finance team. You know, unleash AI in finance, unleash AI in sales, unle- you know, pick which of them are your key characters or the safe zones or the places to try. And do your pilots. Do... Get the benefits and then move on. Um, but imagine that, yeah, you're right.
It will be change on steroids.
[00:12:44] Jens Heitland: Yeah. How, how do you s- see this with the companies that you work with? Are you doing different leaderships trainings with them on these topics, or do you, do you just do, do the things that you know that wor- have worked over the last years?
[00:12:57] Faris Aranki: Uh, I mean, the beauty of leadership, beauty of i- of well-run businesses, it doesn't matter the topic.
[00:13:03] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:13:03] Faris Aranki: It doesn't matter the age. You know, there's, um, I often think it's, it's the equivalent of the Lindy effect. Have you heard of the Lindy effect? The- No ... the best books, the most popular books are the ones that have survived the longest. That knowledge doesn't change. Yeah. There's a reason people still read the Bible.
There's a reason they still read, uh, you know, books, you know, Charles Dickens, but also the business books that are the best are the ones that were, have lasted the longest. So it's the same, uh, really. Go back to the principles because it's all good and well teaching great leadership around AI, you know, but if they're a really terrible communicator, if they're really bad at motivating, you know, let's...
It's worth fixing that before I really up-skill you in AI. Yeah. You know? Yeah.
[00:13:46] Jens Heitland: But that goes with, like also selecting the right leaders for the right roles. Yeah. I mean, it's n- nothing new, but still.
[00:13:53] Faris Aranki: Yeah, and that's, that's what is gonna be, a- another challenge for leaders. That, that they might not be the right person to lead.
[00:14:00] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:14:01] Faris Aranki: You know, it's amazing how you have to park your ego. Um, yes, it's great, but the likelihood that older people are gonna really dive into this in their volumes, it's gonna be the young people who've got time and they... So there's gonna be opportunity for younger leaders. Now, that's not saying that, you know, go and find the 20-year-old who knows how to use AI and give them the CEO role.
Right. There is ways of filtering in that knowledge in a, in an environment that benefits both groups. You know, a classic thing, and, and this is irrespective of AI, but a classic thing I'm doing more of is, uh, shadow boards.
[00:14:33] Jens Heitland: Hmm.
[00:14:34] Faris Aranki: Right? Shadow exec committees made of younger people who are given exactly the same information as the...
Uh, and they actually run their meeting at the same time as the other group. That's cool. And you compare the outputs, the decisions they made, the conversations they had versus this group. Uh, and of course, the sen- the senior, more established group gets the final say, but they get to review that and say, "That's something we never even thought of.
That w- didn't- Why did we not have that conversation initially?" So they, they
[00:14:58] Jens Heitland: go into this conversation with the same input- Yeah ... and, and kind of- Yeah, same board meet- ...
[00:15:03] Faris Aranki: we need to discuss. Yeah ... minutes, meeting. Cool. Same presentations, but where did their conversation take them versus yours? That's amazing.
Right? Let's see. Let's see a summary of that, right? Or, and there are variations of that, right? You can invite guest people into your- Yeah ... into your board meetings to give them exposure, but also to hear those different voices, 'cause it's amazing... It's that, it comes back to that sort of we don't know what we don't know, and that's okay as a leader to say that.
But it takes a, you know, a lot of, uh, humility to say that.
[00:15:29] Jens Heitland: Yeah. I was about to say, I think it, it takes leaders that are willing to step into this unknown, and as well being willing to be challenged from other, other team members or other people, even if it's outside people-
[00:15:41] Faris Aranki: Yeah ...
[00:15:41] Jens Heitland: to, to really s- like, have a longer term perspective and, and then figure out- Like, what do we need to change?
How do we change? But it, it starts, like you said, with themselves. If they're not willing to challenge themselves, then it's not going to happen and they just kind of isolate themselves from the future and will survive somehow. Yeah. And it's anyhow nothing is changing.
[00:16:03] Faris Aranki: Nothing, yeah.
[00:16:04] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:16:04] Faris Aranki: No, and, and we're all guilty of it, right?
Nobody, uh, you know, there's, we- there's so many, of the rooms I walk into or particularly younger leaders, we talk about growth mindset.
[00:16:14] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:16:15] Faris Aranki: Okay. Great, great term, great concept, but it is physically impossible to, for everyone to have a growth mindset 100% of the time on every 100% of topics. Yeah. So it's the same as leaders.
It, it, it's, it is be honest with yourself, where am I at the moment? How open am I to this? Um, in a stupid way, it's why I like to keep challenging myself personally to do stuff to take me back to the humble beginnings, right? Um, like, oh my God, this is really painful having to admit I don't know anything about this.
Yeah. Like, I'm terrible. Um, but yeah, yeah, there are days where I'm like, "No. No." Um-
[00:16:46] Jens Heitland: But I think that's a point we all can do more of: challenging ourselves.
[00:16:53] Faris Aranki: Yeah. I think, I think, I often, a- and I don't know if it, if it works, you know? I use myself as a, a human experiment, okay? And I have a hypothesis that the more we put ourselves through micro changes, the more we're able to deal with macro changes.
Yeah. So yeah, constantly find stuff to disrupt your own life and make you feel uncomfortable so that when the day comes that you need that discomfort, you're better. Now, that could all be rubbish and my hypothesis will be disproven, but in the worst case scenario, you're picking up new skills, you're picking up new challenges.
So, uh, it's not really like you're losing anything by not having that approach.
[00:17:28] Jens Heitland: I mean, the interesting thing, at least for you and me as entrepreneurs, we have this anyhow every day. Things are changing, we need to act and react
[00:17:36] Faris Aranki: Yeah ...
[00:17:36] Jens Heitland: to, to things, so that's already given.
[00:17:38] Faris Aranki: Yeah. But you take it even extreme, uh, you know?
I- Yeah. I think I do stupid small things. You do- ... stupid big things. So, uh-
[00:17:45] Jens Heitland: No, it's, uh, for me, and, and one of the things we have discussed yesterday is- Yeah ... my, my 365-day running streak that- Yeah ... I'm just, uh... For me, it's just challenging myself to develop habits that sometimes, like yesterday traveling, um, to London and getting up really early is completely stupid.
[00:18:06] Faris Aranki: Yeah.
[00:18:06] Jens Heitland: But if you do it, it's possible.
[00:18:09] Faris Aranki: Yes.
[00:18:10] Jens Heitland: And it's the same thing: in the end, if you set yourself a goal and you want to achieve that, it's on you to keep moving towards that. And if that sometimes means you need to do uncomfortable things, you will learn from it.
[00:18:23] Faris Aranki: Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:18:24] Jens Heitland: And everyone can get up at 3:55.
[00:18:26] Faris Aranki: Everyone. Everyone can. If they want to. Yeah, yeah. If you're watching this, don't get up at 3:55. Um, no, c- yes. Well, you say that, but yeah. But it, everyone can. Those who do are- you know, counted on one hand in the, uh-
[00:18:40] Jens Heitland: No, a-
[00:18:40] Faris Aranki: agree ... in the relative scale of things. But, um, but yeah, yeah.
And, and you don't need to jump to a 365 days- No, agree ... as your first thing. You can do something really small like, you know, cutting out sugar from your tea if you've always had sugar. You know, the one I always talk about is I try and do more things left-handed even though I'm right-handed.
[00:18:58] Jens Heitland: That's difficult.
[00:18:59] Faris Aranki: It's difficult, right? If you t- But it's
[00:19:00] Jens Heitland: that micro frustration ... I, I was, I was hearing about toothbrushing. I tried. It doesn't work.
[00:19:04] Faris Aranki: Yeah. Uh, well, it does. Yeah, I know,
[00:19:06] Jens Heitland: I know.
[00:19:06] Faris Aranki: You don't, but you need more than two minutes- Yeah, exactly ... if you're doing it with your weaker hand. Exactly. Yeah. But yes, yeah, yeah.
So discover, but bring it back into the world, yeah. How ready are you? How comfortable are you to be, um, t- you know, challenged? Um, let somebody else lead if you've been in default setting. So a lot of my work is around helping leaders get through that.
[00:19:31] Jens Heitland: If we, if we take the society, uh, view on this, I mean, we, we, yesterday we talked about the wars that are going on.
Yeah. Everything is politicized depending where you are in the world, and politics is... Due to the, the, the availability of news- Yeah ... and, and the news cycles are so short, plus everyone has an opinion that they put out on Twitter or wherever, any social media platform, we, I, I think we're in a, in a space where it's, it's get, it's almost getting too crazy for people to understand what's going on, and then people make up their mind-
[00:20:05] Faris Aranki: Yeah
[00:20:05] Jens Heitland: and, and, and n- need to figure it out.
[00:20:08] Faris Aranki: Yeah.
[00:20:08] Jens Heitland: What does it mean for us as leading ourselves as if we focus on that perspective from all the noise that's happening? What are things we need to learn, uh, do differently? Any, any view on that?
[00:20:20] Faris Aranki: I mean-
[00:20:20] Jens Heitland: Or how do you do it?
[00:20:21] Faris Aranki: Yeah. I, I mean, uh, yeah, there's several things there, right?
It's like, how do you stay sane during all the noise? How do you pick which signals to listen to? How do you, um, how do you act when you meet someone who has a different view to you? Uh, you know. So how do you s- stay sane in all the, uh, in all the noise? I think, um, you can't listen to everything, but you're in a dangerous place if you switch off the world from everything.
[00:20:51] Jens Heitland: Mm.
[00:20:52] Faris Aranki: Uh, so you've got to curate, and how you curate is, uh, is, is really the key. Do you let somebody else curate it for you, an algorithm, right? Which is what most of us do, yeah? Yeah,
[00:21:03] Jens Heitland: true.
[00:21:04] Faris Aranki: Yeah. I'll, I'll just see what's on Instagram. Well, that's been curated for you, what you see on Instagram. Obviously, you can input into it.
Um, or do you make your choices? I'm gonna sign up to this newsletter. I'm gonna sign... Um, and yeah, one of the things I intentionally do is either look out for topics I know nothing about- to, to feed into mine. So I sign up for newsletters. I go and find people I, on topics. Or I f- sign up for newsletters or, or s- or orators who have a completely opposite viewpoint to me.
[00:21:32] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:21:34] Faris Aranki: And it can be painful to watch those things or read, you know, but I think it makes me a better person to understand the other viewpoint, at least see what's being spoken about on the other side. Um, so it's, you- you've got to make some choices, and it's better that you make the choice and input into it.
And people don't appreciate, even if you are sitting watching algorithms, you can impact them a lot, right? Yeah. Hitting, I don't wanna see more of this. I wanna see more of this. But most people just leave it on default setting. Um, and then you, yeah, you know, you can't, it- it, you shouldn't get angry then at what you're seeing 'cause you haven't made some choices.
[00:22:10] Jens Heitland: Yeah. What, what, for, for me, it's always the difficult thing, or at least my perception of it, is everything is this, like, black or white-
[00:22:18] Faris Aranki: Mm ...
[00:22:19] Jens Heitland: which is everything is polarized in either direction. I mean, we see the communication that's happening in context of the war- Yeah ... in, in Iran right now-
[00:22:27] Faris Aranki: Yeah ...
[00:22:27] Jens Heitland: where everything is kind of done in public rather than, "Hey, guys, talk to each other."
Yeah. That can be between the war parties, but also with the other parties in-
[00:22:37] Faris Aranki: Yeah ...
[00:22:38] Jens Heitland: in the Western world- Yeah ... not talking to each other. For me, it's, it's just so e- in my eyes, irresponsible, actually.
[00:22:44] Faris Aranki: Yeah.
[00:22:44] Jens Heitland: Is w- we just build our opinions based on public-
[00:22:48] Faris Aranki: Yeah, and you know what? ...
[00:22:49] Jens Heitland: polemic, which-
[00:22:49] Faris Aranki: And, and, and this is, you know, the, the, the, that wa- this war, current war, is a, is a perfect example of how it's nuance.
It's not black and white, particularly for the Iranian people.
[00:23:00] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:23:01] Faris Aranki: They can both at the same time be grateful for getting rid of a dictator, but want the bombing to stop. And you just wrap your head around that. Like, it w- that's so complex. It- Yeah ... there isn't, it isn't Team America or Team Iran. It's like there are actual people caught in the middle who say, "Well, we like a bit of bo-," you know, there's a, "but we also want to com- everything to completely stop."
And that's really the nuance that we should all remember in any situation, you know? There's no one football team. It, your football team is better than another football team. There's a league, and without the rival teams, you couldn't be champions. But it's, um, yeah, that's, um, that's the real challenge in, in society.
So, you know, number one is how do I, um, pick and choose what I listen to? How do I not go crazy choosing everything? Uh, 'cause the other aspect about human beings is FOMO. Yeah. Like, "Oh my God, I didn't see that," you know, particularly if someone comes and goes, "Did you see that?" And you, and you're like, "No, I was completely oblivious 'cause my channel."
Um, but the other more interesting thing is how do you, how do you get past when you have polar opposite or people with different viewpoints, different things? Now, that's really interesting when it comes back to leadership because leaders now have to lead teams with polarized views.
[00:24:08] Jens Heitland: Yes.
[00:24:09] Faris Aranki: Right? Have to find that commonality, have to, and, and say, "Look, park these issues," or b- even better, solve them- Um, because it's not gonna be helpful.
Um, um, and so that takes a lot of skill as a leader because many of them don't see themselves as, uh, mediators. Um, and they shouldn't have to be. Right? Um, but in my experience, the good thing about humans is it's really hard to hold, uh, diametrically polar aggressive views the more you get to know somebody.
[00:24:47] Jens Heitland: Yeah. Uh-
[00:24:48] Faris Aranki: I
[00:24:48] Jens Heitland: think that's, that's a big one. That's- Mm ... one of the things I was lucky to live in different cultures- Yeah ... and different, um, parts of the world to, to see and experience it myself. Because yes, you can see a movie or you, you can go on vacation- Yeah ... somewhere. Um, and, and yourself, you have lived in other parts of the world as well.
Yeah. If you're immersing yourself in a different culture, you understand them way better.
[00:25:11] Faris Aranki: Yeah.
[00:25:12] Jens Heitland: But it also requires us to open up to a different culture to, to even be willing to understanding where did they come from. Yeah. It's a different religion. What... It's a different culture. If, if you don't immerse yourself into this, you will never understand
[00:25:27] Faris Aranki: it.
You will never, and that's... And we're not telling everyone to- No, no ... get up and go and emigrate. But, but, you know, even have that curiosity about your team. Uh, you don't- Exactly ... need to go to... You know, it's, it sounds remarkably simple, but, uh, a- I'd say at least 50% of my work is just getting teams to know each other better.
Yeah. Some of the most basic stuff really moves mountains, really diffuses these conversations. Right? Oh, look, we both have dogs. Oh, look, we both, you know, we both like this TV show. But it's amazing how many particularly senior teams do n- just get straight into the nitty-gritty of the work. Yeah. And, and usually that is discussing a topic, what's our view on it, right?
But like I said, the more you actually get to know someone, it's harder to stay angry at them, to see them as the villain. So yeah, I do loads of really basic stuff, but it really has an impact, and I sometimes feel guilty. My dad says, "I can't believe you play games with senior executives, and they ch- and you charge X amount."
And I say, "But how about I reverse it, Dad, and, and their performance goes up, right? And they make 10% more money-
[00:26:31] Jens Heitland: Yeah, exactly ...
[00:26:32] Faris Aranki: yeah, by these silly games." And even the executives themselves say, "W- why are you about to make us do some kung fu? Why are you about to make us play card games with each other?" Um, because that sort of spending time getting to know each other means it'll be easier to discuss should we do A or B.
[00:26:48] Jens Heitland: Yeah. And, and to that point, what I have experienced in the past, being in big organizations myself as an employee- Not doing this just a one-off, like, ah, we do something one year- Yeah ... and, and then like an offsite, like a lot of management team do that. Yeah. Which is n- nothing wrong about that. No. But i- if you do this once a year, it's not really helping.
It helps, but I think it's not enough. You need to bring, bring that in a more frequent way, at least in my experience, that- Yeah ... that was always way better.
[00:27:16] Faris Aranki: Yeah. And a, and away day should be the springboard for something. Um, a, um... And again, you don't need these big set piece events. Uh, taking five minutes at the start of a meeting, you know, having a, a dedicated, a Slack channel for just sharing personal stuff, uh, these small thing.
And there'll be a lot of people who are listening to they're going, "I don't wanna be personal at work." Yeah. Right? I'm not... You know, I, yeah, I wanna, I just wanna earn a paycheck, and that's totally fine. And it should... It's not taking up any extra time. It's not saying you need to. But I bet you if there's suddenly a Slack appeared with everyone sharing their, their favorite cartoon character, you'd probably check it every now and then, even if you never wrote anything.
Uh, and so, um, so, you know, being a bit more human at work is no bad thing.
[00:28:01] Jens Heitland: Yeah. In my view, more important than ever- Mm ... in what we just discussed. Mm. One part, the technology, then the global, um, polemic or- Mm ... war topics. If we, if we don't concentrate us being human- Yeah ... we can only lose.
[00:28:18] Faris Aranki: Yeah. And the more...
Yeah, you know, that's a, a fact I'm seeing with AI and teams that I work with. The more AI improves and is doing our thinking, is doing our writing, is doing our... It just reduces the need to actually have a conversation with somebody else.
[00:28:33] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:28:34] Faris Aranki: Right? And we're losing. There's an atrophy of basic communication, human interaction skills.
You know, I kid you not, I walked into a company and I could see there was a two departments where had hostility with each other. And I remember talking to, you know, the people, the two people who were involved, and I said to one of them, "So have you gone and spoke o- gone over and spoken to them?" And he looked at me and said, "No.
Why would I do that? I sent them an email. I wrote it in this lecture." I said, "No, but you've just gotta go over and say, 'Look, this is... You know, I'm not happy with it.'" He said, "No, no, no. That's, uh... I don't wanna, I don't wanna get told off. I don't wanna have to face that." I said, "Well, you've got to. Uh, you know, just go and talk to them."
And it was amazing that somebody was scared of a conversation. But I say amazing, it's very common in modern life.
[00:29:18] Jens Heitland: Yeah. And I think that's- Going back to what you do, that's why it needs people that come from the outside. I, I know in, in big organizations always, "Ah, we have all the th- people inside that can do..."
But they're part of it. Yeah. It's very difficult from an internal to point the finger at, at things because they don't see it. They're blind quite often. Yeah,
[00:29:38] Faris Aranki: yeah.
[00:29:38] Jens Heitland: When someone like yourself or, or your team members come in- Yeah ... then it's, it's different because- It's
[00:29:43] Faris Aranki: completely
[00:29:43] Jens Heitland: different ... you can talk it.
[00:29:44] Faris Aranki: Yeah. It's, it's this old y- you can't read your own label, right? I- it, it's- Yeah ... it's really hard. Yeah. So having that independent third person, but also who, who gives you that nudge, right? It's the difference between training in the beginning with a, a PT and doing it on your own.
[00:30:02] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:30:02] Faris Aranki: Yeah. You can get there, but if someone's there standing over you going, "No, d- you know, y- you're doing it bad form.
You're not doing it enough," you'll accelerate quicker.
[00:30:12] Jens Heitland: Yeah. So how can people find out more about you? How can people reach out to
[00:30:17] Faris Aranki: They... As ever, I spend a disproportionate amount of time on LinkedIn, so come and look for Faris Aranki. If you wanna see some more of my work, just type Faris Aranki into any AI.
And if you're not checking yourself out on AI, you're missing a trick here. But yeah, come and find me on LinkedIn. Come and check out our company, Shiageto, at www.shiageto.com. Or just come and track me down. I can be found wandering the streets of London or running the streets of London.
Um, and, uh, always happy to have a conversation.
[00:30:52] Jens Heitland: Yeah. And as well, listen to the other podcast where we went deeper into, leadership topics. We did a Walk the Talk. Um, you shared more use cases on what, what you're doing with organizations.
[00:31:05] Faris Aranki: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, go watch the TEDx. You'll get a nice fla- flavor of this kind of stuff that
[00:31:11] Jens Heitland: I do.
Faris, thank you very much for your time. It was a pleasure to have you again on the podcast.
[00:31:15] Faris Aranki: Thank you very much, Jens.