EP261: Neil Pendle: Water Is the Next Business Risk
Neil Pendle, founder of Waterscan, joins Jens Heitland in Belgium to discuss why water has become a business continuity risk, not just a sustainability commitment, and what organizations can do about it.
Youtube Podcasts
No Water, No Business
I met Neil Pendle in Belgium this summer, a few months after he stepped down as CEO of Waterscan, the company he built from a single contract into one of the UK's leading water consulting firms. He handed leadership to his successor, Barry, and now spends his time talking to businesses, regulators, and governments about a risk most organizations have not yet priced in.
He told me about a call one of his clients received this year. A major brewer, a business that depends on water as a core ingredient, was told by their supplier that the water would be shut off within an hour. That call came with no extended warning. The company had no plan, because water had simply always been there.
For decades, water sat in the same category as recycling programs and emissions targets, a sustainability commitment with a distant horizon. Neil's story points to something else happening in parallel. In the UK and across southern Europe this summer, drought conditions have pushed water out of the sustainability report and into daily operational risk. A brewery without water has no product to sell. An airport without water cannot keep its restrooms running, and the building closes within hours. An office can send its staff home. A pub or a cafe has no fallback at all.
What Neil described as network resilience is really about demand outpacing supply. The reservoirs are not empty. The system simply cannot deliver water fast enough for how much people are using. Five billion liters a day move through the UK alone, and no single new reservoir or pipeline closes that gap quickly. Every liter saved somewhere in the system helps close the gap.
The businesses treating this as an operational question, rather than an environmental one, are the ones building real resilience. Neil pointed to boreholes operating below capacity, fresh water used in cleaning processes that could run on recycled supply, and partnerships between neighboring businesses to share non-potable water. None of these require new technology. Most require a shift in ownership, moving responsibility for water risk from a sustainability team to operations and finance.
Pricing tells a similar story. Water has stayed artificially cheap for years compared to energy, which is part of why so few businesses have invested in efficiency the way they invested in solar panels or insulation. That gap is closing now, and water prices across Europe are rising steadily rather than spiking the way energy prices did during recent crises. Slow increases are easier to ignore until the underlying resource itself becomes the constraint, not the bill.
Talking with Neil, I found myself thinking about how similar this pattern is to conversations I have had with leaders about digital trust or reputation. The infrastructure carries on quietly until the day it cannot, and by then the cost of not having planned is far higher than the cost of the plan itself. Water is simply the clearest version of that pattern I have encountered this year, because the deadline is measured in an hour rather than a fiscal quarter.
Businesses that survive the next decade of water scarcity will be the ones that already know who owns the risk internally, what their fallback options are, and how quickly they can act when the call comes. Everyone else will be finding out in real time, the way that brewer did.
Human Innovation with Jens Heitland is produced by Heitland Media Group.*
Guest Links
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/neil-pendle-26332227/
Website:https://www.jensheitland.com/
Business:https://www.heitlandmediagroup.com/
LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/jensheitland/
Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/JensHeitlandofficial/
Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/jensheitland/
TikTok:https://www.tiktok.com/@jensheitland
X/Twitter:https://twitter.com/jensheitland
Newsletter:https://www.jensheitland.com/newsletter
YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/@jens-heitland
Subscribe and listen to Jens’ Heitland Podcast here:
YT:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjuSGi1feauCNSER3IKuGWg
Web:https://www.jensheitland.com/podcasthome
Apple:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-jens-heitland-show-human-innovation/id1545043872?uo=4
Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/7H0GWMGVALyXnnmstYA1NL
Transcript
[00:00:02] Jens Heitland: You are world champion '24 ... because, there's this, the World Cups of hockey go, every, it used to be every four years. Now they're every two years. And so, and generally it goes long distance or it's Europe, and it alternates between the two. but I played in World Cups in Auckland, in Canberra, in Singapore, Hong Kong- Cool
[00:00:27] Neil Pendle: as well as European But only masters or- Yeah, so master- I have played international hockey, f- for junior international under 20
[00:00:36] Jens Heitland: you have built, a company from the ground up to be one of the most successful water consulting companies in the UK. And sticking still with, like, hockey, what does the number 13 mean to you, and why did you decide 13? Okay, so it, it's, it's... 13 is, it's, it's, it's partly because nobody else wants 13, and, and I quite like to be a little bit different and to stand out.
[00:01:04] Neil Pendle: Okay. So it was, everyone's going for number 10, number nine, number six. These are popular numbers. and nobody ever picks 13. So whenever it says, "Is there a number you want?" 'Cause I've been playing, in the team for quite a long time. There is a little bit of, you get a little bit of choice.
[00:01:22] Jens Heitland: Yeah. And say, if you're first up, number 10's not the first number 'cause it's such an obvious choice. Yeah. I chose 13, and I've had 13 for a, for a long time. Long means? I think 15 years or so. I've had to change once or twice because somebody else, had 13, and I felt that they wanted it, and okay, fine.
[00:01:45] Neil Pendle: so I wasn't... I'm not too bothered. But I, I... sometimes we give or we swap shirts at the end of games. At the end of the tournament, the final game, you usually swap- Yeah ... swap gear. So I've got lots of German, Dutch, Australian shirts, that we swapped over the years. so, and I, but I currently play with number 17, so I shall give away my number 17 shirt, but I shall keep my number 13, and next season I shall be back in my number 13 shirt.
[00:02:12] Neil Pendle: Which I like to be. It's a little bit to be different and- Yeah ... and, and not to be obvious and And that matches some of the things I like to do in the business scene. Trying to find things that are a little bit different and a different perspective, a different approach.
[00:02:28] Neil Pendle: and one might call that innovation. But I think it's to try to stand out a little bit, and, we've been pretty successful at doing that over a number of years. How did you combine the hockey with running a business and growing a business from zero to a couple of hundred people?
[00:02:47] Neil Pendle: I personally think you need a break. And, and so it's a great... I'm a big fan of yoga, so, and I've come to this in the last three or four years, and it's extended my hockey career. Yeah. So I can still play 'cause I can still move. and it's great.
[00:03:03] Neil Pendle: You can't stand on one leg and think about a sales target or a proposal. Yeah. well, I can't. so there's a matter of taking out, and... I find it easy to fall into the trap of always thinking about work, and holidays are sometimes a little bit challenging, particularly for myself, but also for the family.
[00:03:26] Neil Pendle: And so that's a great way of making something that you can... You can't do two things. you need to focus on one, and it's great to have... And hockey's not a hobby for me. it's something I'm deeply committed to, coaching, managing, playing, and being involved in the sport as a whole.
[00:03:44] Neil Pendle: So it's a way of breaking from, and separating it from my business work. So you played your whole life? Yeah, I think I started at 10 or something like that. Yeah. So, but I played it through my junior years up to 21 I was playing at a pretty high standard.
[00:04:05] Neil Pendle: and then going into club. And the clubs are fantastic 'cause it's such a community. Mm. I'd say it's all age groups from juniors. We've got an under sixes, and that is great fun. you hold the stick the other way round, and it's- Yeah ... and, takes a little while, but they all get it.
[00:04:23] Neil Pendle: And you feel at the end of the year that they're much better players, and they have fun. And there's nothing like a five-year-old scoring a goal and spinning away. You don't get that joy. Yeah. that's... And then of course coaching the men and the ladies it's a little bit different. That's a bit more- You have been even, like, assistant coach in, in the World Cup while playing yourself as well.
[00:04:44] Neil Pendle: Yeah. So I've... It's much more professional now. So we've got physio, coach, manager, and a team lead for all the England teams over here. Yeah. So, when I was in Singapore, I was the captain, but I also had to do the coaching. and so, that was hard to do.
[00:05:02] Neil Pendle: But you put a great team of people together- Mm ... and everyone knows their role, and it- you don't have to repeat messages you've been repeating for a long time. Yeah. They get it, and, it becomes automatic. And then we're problem-solving as a collective, and it's not so much, and my style of leadership in business is not so much a, "We will do this."
[00:05:25] Jens Heitland: Yeah. it's about a collective knowledge and responsibility but also about sharing the burden of leadership and innovation but also finding and encouraging a way of thinking, which I think is very profitable. How similar is... Like, if we take your leadership style as a captain or even coach to being, the CEO or former CEO of your own business.
[00:05:50] Neil Pendle: So I'm much harder in my hockey life. I'm strong about fitness, about ethics and behavior, and about playing styles. Mm. 'cause I think you do need a framework when you're in a team in a sporting environment. With work, I'm much less of that person.
[00:06:12] Neil Pendle: And so it's not so much softer but reconsidering options, listening to different people's perspectives and not minding whose perspective it is. It doesn't have to be an executive manager or somebody who's leading that team, or somebody who's an expert even. O- and often they don't have the best ideas.
[00:06:34] Neil Pendle: Mm. an expert is good for framing the problem you're trying to solve, but is not so good sometimes, a bit too close to it to see what the solution might be or how you can do it differently. And thinking differently is how we've operated for a long time, and it's been good.
[00:06:54] Jens Heitland: And if you look back in the career of building your business, and we will go deeper into the business obviously over the conversation as well. So you started alone and then built it up to a couple of hundred. How has the leadership or your personal leadership changed over the last 30 years?
[00:07:13] Neil Pendle: Crikey, that's a good question. I think as you grow teams, I found the most important thing is to empower them. Mm. And people... I'm an entrepreneur. My family all had their own businesses, my father, my grandfather. We grew up in the environment. Most people don't.
[00:07:31] Jens Heitland: Yeah. And if you give somebody, particularly if they're young, the power to say, "It's your decision," and, "What do you think we should do?" And then support and back them, I think that's the most important thing. And... I'm never worried about age. Often the younger people coming into this, they're enthusiastic.
[00:07:54] Neil Pendle: they learn quickly. It frightens me sometimes how good somebody is coming into a business and perhaps after a year is finding great ideas and innovating. They might not spot that that's an innovation, and what you need to do is say, "That's good.
[00:08:12] Neil Pendle: We should do that," and then see if we can scale it. And, and if we can scale it, how can we refine it? Mm. And those sorts of thinking, that methodology really works very, very well. So when, when you have hired people in the past and even today, what are specific things you look at? L- do you look if they play a team sport, as an example?
[00:08:32] Neil Pendle: No. There's two main principles. Hire on attitude. so if they don't have a good Work ethic, and a good... and are enthusiastic and want to do it, and they need to communicate that when we're interviewing. but I think, talent, and it doesn't matter.
[00:08:56] Neil Pendle: I've never worried about what their education was- Mm ... or what industry they've been working in. That's immaterial to me. what I need is a great attitude, and somebody who's bright and somebody who... I think they could do anything, and I'd love them to come and join our team and do something for us.
[00:09:19] Neil Pendle: Yeah. And that is the two principles I've taken in. And sometimes it means taking risks. Our new CEO, Barry, was in his early 30s. I hired him as a technical director and he hadn't done anything like this before. Hadn't worked in water efficiency.
[00:09:39] Neil Pendle: he was in the water industry, but adjacent, I guess. Yeah. And he came across to me as a guy who knew his stuff, very confident young man, but also he was ambitious, and he wanted to make a difference, and I thought he was fantastic, and I hired him on the spot.
[00:09:57] Jens Heitland: Yeah. Let's talk about, about that. So you... couple of months ago, you decided to step down as the CEO and hand it over to Barry. Sure. How was that for you? What was the dec- Like, what was the way to get to that decision? Because you have been leading and building the business for over 30 years. I think there's a few things here.
[00:10:16] Neil Pendle: Firstly, I think that just the time felt right. I think, when you're building, a business, you're always thinking about talent coming through, and I think it's the, the, the senior leadership team at WaterScan are in a great position. they're a very talented group. They know what they want to achieve together.
[00:10:35] Neil Pendle: There's a great community and spirit about the team. I think they're ready to go. I don't think there's anything that they... They've got all the tools they need. Mm. So my job is transitioning from leadership, strategy, and a focal point into a different role- Yeah ... one of support and advice because I think they're ready to do that.
[00:10:56] Neil Pendle: And so it felt like the right time to do that change. I think the second thing is that, I've... there's a lot happening in water at the moment, and I've been in a world where it's narrow. I'm talking about corporate businesses, large water users, a highly commercial world, and there's a lot more to water than that world.
[00:11:18] Neil Pendle: And those, all the risks overlap. Mm. And we're dealing with an issue, in water where, we're using too much, and it's becoming more unpredictable. And so that's quite a challenge, and I'd like to talk to people about that challenge and how we meet that challenge- Yeah ... across not in a corporate world, but- more sectors and to more people.
[00:11:41] Jens Heitland: Let's talk about that. So one of the things when we talked last time was a statement where you say, "No water, no business." Explain that. Okay. I think, for 30 years, we focused on, we've spoken about resilience as a matter of using water more efficiently, controlling costs, applying new technology, and trying to control it a little better, and that way, build resilience.
[00:12:10] Neil Pendle: And over the last few years, that's not enough, and I think, we're at a drought in the UK, in Southern England. It's... the National Drought Group met yesterday, they've expanded the drought and, it's more serious now. it hasn't rained where I live for 50 days.
[00:12:30] Neil Pendle: Mm. in England, it rains a lot. And so it's an extraordinary change. So looking at that and saying, it's... We used to be, we're talking about efficiency and costs, and now we're talking about, resilience in terms of infrastructure and supply, and it manifests itself in recent years, and this summer, we've had a major customer who had a phone call from the water company, says, "We will be shutting the water off in an hour."
[00:12:59] Jens Heitland: Mm. And, if water's part of your product- Yeah ... what do you do about that? And it was panic stations. The second phone call they made was to me. So we dealt with it and dealt with the water company, but it was... that's never happened before, and it's unprecedented.
[00:13:16] Jens Heitland: What was the reason they decided to, to say that we are shutting it off in an hour? Well, well, one of the issues that we've got, this is why I want to have a, a conversation with more people, is- Yeah ... that it's not about the... And there is water in the system, yes, the, the, the reservoirs, aren't at zero. Mm.
[00:13:31] Neil Pendle: The demand is so high, the system can't supply the water at the rate that people are using it. Ah, okay. And so, you get the situation where, that's never happened before. Not at this scale. Yeah. And so you got a major brewer who's, there's a lot of water in beer- Yeah.
[00:13:49] Neil Pendle: and into making beer. Yeah. And it's deeply important, - Yeah ... enough beer. and if they're saying, "You can't use water," your production stops. It's hard. Yeah. Your product is done. Your product's done. Yeah. so it literally was, we can't supply customers, and you're a major user, therefore, one of the ways we solve that problem is to say, "We're not gonna supply you water so we can supply everyone else."
[00:14:13] Jens Heitland: Mm. Now if you're a big brewer, while you might be sympathetic- Yeah ... commercially, there's nothing you can do. You know, that's the reality. Yeah. But you need to think about, "Okay, if that happens, what do I do?" And the answer was, "We don't know." That isn't sufficient now. Yeah.
[00:14:33] Neil Pendle: And this is something that's new, and I've been talking about it for a long time, maybe 10 years. Yeah. but I'm surprised at the pace of change. and at this situation it's demand led, not resources led. It's network resilience. but it's also getting into the situation we're getting in the South of England where there isn't enough water.
[00:14:53] Neil Pendle: Yeah. If there isn't enough water, they take it from the rivers and our rivers die. And personally that means a lot to me. water's valuable, but it's more valuable, in a river than it is, somebody wasting water. And I think of it every liter of water's precious.
[00:15:10] Jens Heitland: Yeah, and I mean, what we see right now, what you are explaining is the UK perspective. I was just in Portugal and we have seen the fires in, in, in south of Europe this summer in 2026. Even in the Netherlands where fires, they... And, because I'm living in the Netherlands and we got an information from the city hall that we should not use water to, like, for our grass in the, in the garden, which, I mean, the Netherlands is one of the water countries, but even the Netherlands is now really pushing not to use it.
[00:15:39] Jens Heitland: Going back to your example, it's, at, at least when, when I was working with water topics in one of the largest retailers in the world, we looked at that from more a sustainability perspective. But it, it sounds like it, organizations need to go from, "Hey, this is a sustainability nice to have," to something that's business critical, understanding how they build redundancy, but also how they make sure, if we take the brewery example, to not have a, a minus business, not have a shutdown of anything, because that means you shut down the business long-term.
[00:16:17] Neil Pendle: Yeah. So it's... I think the environmental aspect is important. Mm-hmm. And it's good to frame it in those terms. But it is, it's about business risk, it's about continuity, and it's about security, and that builds resilience. And that's the definition of resilience. Yeah.
[00:16:33] Neil Pendle: And I know you can break that down, quite a lot at... But it's also simple. what do you do if... And having those management plans, and thinking about those scenarios, and seeing what you can do to solve it. But you can't do it if the phone calls come in and you've got an hour to do it.
[00:16:51] Neil Pendle: Yeah. You need to plan for it. And in order to do that, if it's in an ESG program, it's in a, this is a good thing to do, these are the right messages, this is an environmental program. and it becomes a bit more of a public relations exercise. and it needs to be a business operations exercise.
[00:17:09] Neil Pendle: Yeah. And that is so important, and that's about ownership. It's about understanding the risk, and it's about implementing a program that's going to help you become more resilient. If, if we, if we take the brewery, what, what are things they could do with water? Obviously, they have one supplier of water, I guess, at least.
[00:17:25] Jens Heitland: I don't know. W- what could a, a brewery like this do? Well, they have one supplier. Actually, there are alternative suppliers. I mean, they do have a borehole on site. Yeah. I mean, are they operating that borehole as effectively as they can? Yeah. I mean, actually, if you're using water, quite a lot of water's used in, in, industrial plants, food and drink manufacturing, in cleaning process.
[00:17:32] Neil Pendle: Why are you using clean fresh water for that and cleaning process? Hmm. What opportunities there are to reuse and recycle? What alternative supplies for non-potable are
[00:17:50] Neil Pendle: there
[00:17:54] Neil Pendle: in your local area? Yeah. How can we collaborate with local businesses, other partners, and the water supplier, the water company, to ensure we've got a more balanced view? We're not taking water off the network. Yeah. we're reusing it. And when you get into that, you think there's a list of 20 things and projects that require investment, that require, thinking about how might we do things differently, and sometimes that's a regulatory change.
[00:18:22] Neil Pendle: Mm-hmm. And so I'm deeply interested in getting into, regulation changes, not only in Europe. There's a lot of leadership, from the EU on this, but there's a whole change of program in the UK as well that's sort of mirroring the same themes that are coming through. So just a consistent message. We need to use less water.
[00:18:39] Neil Pendle: Not less water, in the way we produce our beer. Less water in how we shower, how we use it at home. Yeah. and we have a different attitude to water. I don't know about you, but in the UK, there's a drought. There's a lot of people who think, "I have a right to use water however I want to."
[00:18:56] Neil Pendle: Yeah. Well, no you don't. And it's not the water company's water, it's the environment's water. That water's come from a river, okay? And, and I think we need to change that and change people's mindset around that. But in a corporate environment, they need to think about this in terms of what do I need it for?
[00:19:11] Neil Pendle: How important is it to me? How can I make it more resilient? And how can I think of new technologies and new innovations to do things a little bit differently? And then you can build resilience like that, through that method. Yeah. and I think there's ... The fact is the technology's there. you don't
[00:19:27] Neil Pendle: We're not having to reinvent or, - Build something brand new. It's all there and available to... It is about leadership, it's about understanding the risk, and it's about applying that over a long-term plan If we use another example, so obviously if you have a brewery which uses water for the product that they are selling.
[00:19:50] Jens Heitland: There was an incident with Gatwick Airport, I think last month. It was. Explain that for people that think, "An airport, why does an airport need water? They have airplanes flying." Yeah, so, water being critical is important to understand why it's critical.
[00:20:12] Neil Pendle: So if you're Gatwick Airport, what do you need water for? It's not... There's a little bit of restaurant use. It's hygiene. You're using it for- Yeah ... toilets and hand washing. and there are a lot of toilets and a lot of points of use in a building of that size, and it's complicated, and if you interrupt it for a little while, the system doesn't have resilience.
[00:20:37] Neil Pendle: It falls down quickly. Yeah. And so, things like pump sets go down, there's not enough water in tanks, you get all sorts of issues. Starting back up again is hard to do. Mm. And so there is the built assumption that water will always be on, and we've got to change that.
[00:20:56] Neil Pendle: But Gatwick Airport was simply a security supply issue. They lost a supply, in that area, and it was catastrophic for Gatwick Airport. But there are many examples like that where, we're thinking about water in terms of, "I expect it to be on." Yeah. and it's becoming more difficult to have that resilience from an infrastructure perspective.
[00:21:19] Neil Pendle: A pub can't do without water. If you're a cafe, you can't do without water. You shut. Yeah. There's no... You don't start a generator. You don't get a- There's no- And getting a bowser in or getting an alternative water source, it's impossible.
[00:21:34] Jens Heitland: Yeah. And so what do you do? It's more difficult for a supermarket or a pub or Gatwick Airport, than a manufacturing business which might have tank- Yeah, yeah ... facilities, storage facilities, treatment facilities, and things like that.
[00:21:53] Neil Pendle: So you... It's surprising where it hurts first, and I think people- Don't realize that 'cause they haven't thought about it But even in an office business, like we're sitting right now in an office tower. If we would not have water here for a certain amount of time, we would
[00:22:11] Jens Heitland: Like, you can close the building. It would close immediately. Yeah. You can't do it. and, why would you want to? You don't want- Yeah ... you can't use the bathroom, so that's important. and it doesn't happen, you know, it'd be okay if it was a small office and you could go to the cafe around the corner.
[00:22:29] Neil Pendle: Yeah. but, an office like this. They would close. Say, "We can work from home." And of course- The reality is, in a post-COVID world, working from home and that type of thing is easy to do. So there is a bit of resilience there for an office building.
[00:22:47] Neil Pendle: Yeah, yeah. But if you're a cafe, you have no revenue. If you're a pub- True ... you don't- It's gone ... there's zero. Whereas if you're an office, you can work it out, 'cause you've been through it, 'cause you went through COVID. Yeah. And commercial businesses at the moment, particularly large users, are going through that now, where they've seen the reality of a world where we aren't resilient about water, and it's happening quickly, and it's been underlying for a long time, but it's now becoming apparent, and that's a big change, and it's remarkable how quickly that has happened.
[00:23:20] Jens Heitland: Yeah. There's been droughts for five years. Yeah, over the last six years there have been four droughts in the UK. I remember when it rains all the time. 'cause I'm old. But these weather patterns are extraordinary. But even if you took the drought out, even if we have normal rainfall, we're going to have a massive shortfall in the amount of demand for water and the amount of supply.
[00:23:46] Neil Pendle: Yeah. It's five billion liters a day in the UK, and you don't make that up by finding a new river and, and harvesting rain. You do that, you've got to hit everything. all opportunities to save water have got to be, taken up. If, if we look at different levels, so we have the personal level, like you and I at home with our families, then we have companies that work with or without water, and, and then we, we have countries and government and so on.
[00:24:14] Jens Heitland: How do we innovate if we look at the whole systematic way on all the different levels? Because I think, in my perspective, in the end, we need to work on all the different levels to figure out how we solve this. I'd divide it into two things. First, there is a governmental level, and a water strategy is important, and I think the EU, the UK government, they are thinking about these issues.
[00:24:38] Neil Pendle: Because, we have a growth agenda in the UK, and it's silly, there's lots of parts of Europe where growing the economy is- Yeah ... important. If you don't have water, it's difficult to grow- Yeah ... regardless of what you do. Yeah. And so, whether that be for agriculture, for industry, or small businesses, you know, it...
[00:24:57] Neil Pendle: You, you need that. if you, if you... That, that piece of work needs to be done, and there, there... People are doing it, but it's slow. And so, people like me- Influence, government, influence water companies to try to change. And, and I, and I feel that's much more of my role now and, and I'm freer to do that piece.
[00:25:19] Neil Pendle: but it, it boils down to consumers. Whether you're a commercial, an industrial, or, a domestic consumer- Mm ... you need to change your attitude to water, and you need to think about it differently. And it, it needs to result in us using less water- Yeah ... and treating it differently. That means in the end it's behavior change.
[00:25:38] Neil Pendle: It, it, it, it's- Which is the most difficult. And, and, you know, we're just getting into a- Yeah ... behavioral change world where... I mean, water, I mean, you've seen, I mean, energy and carbon, they've been, you know, turn the lights off. Yeah. you know, and, and even sort of public safety, and, and highways and, and all sorts of behavioral change projects.
[00:25:56] Neil Pendle: And now, it's ingrained into habit. It's not behavioral change. Yeah. It's the way we do things. Yeah. and, we need the same thing with water. and it's a difficult thing to... because people have had an attitude for a long time about it's always going to be there, and I can use it to do whatever I like with it.
[00:26:14] Neil Pendle: the answer is it isn't, and you can't.
[00:26:17] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:26:17] Neil Pendle: and that's quite a big change. But to be honest with you, when you talk to people about water, there's a lot of blame. if you're waiting for government to, make the difference- Yeah ... well, you're gonna be waiting a long time. it... consumes it's the way that things are gonna change, and I think they, have all the tools they need.
[00:26:34] Neil Pendle: And it's also commercially a good investment. It not only protects your business, but you can save money, you can be more efficient, and there's all sorts of co-benefits of running a water efficiency program. we've seen that over many years of doing that for a long time, but it also is a critical pillar in building resilience.
[00:26:55] Jens Heitland: Yeah. If we look at business and the commercial version of that, if we say I'm running a company, one of the things when I was working in big retail and we looked into investing into, let's say, rainwater usage and so on, that's, this is more than 15 years ago already.
[00:27:18] Jens Heitland: The tricky thing was always water was too cheap compared to electricity. Electricity, as higher the prices got as higher the return of invest was for PV panels, whatever you do, Water seems too cheap today for everyone to do something. If we take me at home, I'm not looking at water costs, I'm looking at energy costs, electrical costs.
[00:27:44] Neil Pendle: So I think this is... if I said to my customers, "water's too cheap," I might have rotten tomatoes thrown at me. 'Cause it isn't anymore. Yeah. And broadly speaking, the price in the UK match the prices across Europe. There's some areas which it's a bit cheaper, but, they're beginning to price in, security of supply.
[00:28:05] Neil Pendle: Mm. They're beginning to price these things in. The thing about water is that it's a long-term price change, and you're not gonna have the bill shocks you do from a Ukraine war, from what's- Yeah ... happening in, in Iran and, and all that sort of thing, so you don't get these energy crisis moments. It builds slowly, but it is...
[00:28:24] Neil Pendle: You can't stop it. And so we've seen price increases, and you're seeing price increases across Europe which are steadily ratcheting up. Mm. And that is something you can't stop and you can't control, so we... You, you can't negotiate a new contract your way out of this. Yeah. And there's no commercial procurement route-
[00:28:43] Neil Pendle: to solving this problem. it is deeper than that. And so while I would say, you will spend more on energy, water's catching up, and it's going to continue to catch up. and the solution is more difficult. You can't do a solar panel- Yeah
[00:29:03] Neil Pendle: to create energy and to be off grid, in water. And it's expensive to do retrofit. It's easy to do when we're building houses.
[00:29:12] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:29:13] Neil Pendle: And so that's the role of government, that's the role of regulators, to try to sort of build a, a future which, builds in that resilience, and then we can start to make a difference and move the dial.
[00:29:24] Neil Pendle: but eventually it boils down to people using less water, and it's gonna... You're gonna use less, and it's still gonna cost you more. and If you don't think that's happening, that's a problem.
[00:29:37] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:29:37] Neil Pendle: And we really need to get on hold of that. you can't negotiate your way out of that.
[00:29:42] Neil Pendle: You can't build in anything. you need to do it now.
[00:29:46] Jens Heitland: If we look at the young talent right now, I was, two weeks ago, in Portugal at a student program and, was participating as a mentor and working with young students in their early 20s, and they all worked around environmental topics, and water was not the highest topic, but it was part of their way of thinking.
[00:30:07] Jens Heitland: So how do you see the talent m- moving right now? Like, is it easy for you right now getting the, the top talent in, in, in the organization?
[00:30:16] Neil Pendle: We're lucky 'cause, we're part of the solution. Yeah. And we're not a water company, and we're not a government agency.
[00:30:25] Neil Pendle: Yeah. we're innovative, it's an easy place to work, and you can make a difference quickly. And we have a purpose. I think, those things make people want to join and want to be part of that- Hmm ... movement. and I think water is the most interesting thing, the most interesting industry, that there is at the moment.
[00:30:46] Neil Pendle: The challenges, you know, of climate change, of the environment, of, of, of business growth, water is intrinsic into all of those things, and there's so much going on. It's such an interesting thing to get involved in at whatever level you do, that I think it's a great career for- person to do, but it's got a terrible reputation.
[00:31:09] Neil Pendle: Yeah. It's probably a little bit better in Europe, than it is, in the UK, but the UK water industry is in a terrible state, and it's because of poor leadership, historic poor leadership. Yeah. And I think things are changing, but God, I wish it would change quicker, and they would grasp the nettle.
[00:31:27] Neil Pendle: They haven't got hold of the fact that this is a big problem, and engaging with customers to get them to use more water is not about telling them, "Use less water," 'cause that never goes down well. Behavioral changes is, as you've said, so important to do, and you've got people who are used to doing that.
[00:31:45] Neil Pendle: They're people who run the water industry. They're engineers. they look at networks. they're not consumer-facing people. Yeah. And y- you need that part of it to bring people with you, and that's where there's so many opportunities. But the water industry's a, is a great place to be. It's a great career, and it's deeply interesting, and it'll be very rewarding, but it's got a reputation issue, and they need to solve that quick.
[00:32:09] Jens Heitland: If we look at your business, if I'm a young student right now, what would be different career opportunities to work in your business? What are the different things that you do where I, as a student, don't know that you do this kind of things, and the different clients and the different environments that I can learn from while working in your organization?
[00:32:31] Neil Pendle: I think there's... We've always done water efficiency, and that is... Yeah, it's an interesting space, but- Some of the new stuff we're doing is, it blows my mind. And another reason why, to have new talent who think differently is a good opportunity for the business.
[00:32:49] Neil Pendle: So all sorts of things around data. We're getting smart data, meter data, consumption data. that is fantastically powerful. Mm. But it's... There's a lot of it, and unless you build tools to be able to interpret that data and communicate those messaging and the conclusions to that, what's happening to customers so that they can take action, actionable insights, that's hard to do.
[00:33:14] Neil Pendle: So all those data side of things, we're investing heavily in that. And there's a lot of people who've come from different sectors coming into water and thinking, "Gosh, I... This is amazing. You've got so much information. Why aren't you doing more with it?" Mm. Mm. Mm. And there's so much innovation in that space.
[00:33:30] Neil Pendle: and I think it's also the b- we mentioned behavioral change. We're doing a major project called, Workplace Water Wins, and it's an innovation project that we've been tasked to do. It's involving 15 partners about changing people's attitudes to water at the business level. and that project is interesting, so it's behavioral science.
[00:33:52] Neil Pendle: Getting into that, I didn't know... I thought I was good about changing people's- I know nothing about behavioral change. Yeah. And I'm learning about it, and it's fun to do, and you understand the issue. I think the other thing is the innovation side of it, which is perhaps a...
[00:34:13] Neil Pendle: It's not easy to understand, is that, a lot of this boils down to, what is the return? How can we understand the cost of water to a business, and the cost of no water?
[00:34:28] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:34:28] Neil Pendle: And those financial and commercial aspect of that. I think that's an interesting space, and we've got talented people who can communicate that effectively to customers.
[00:34:39] Jens Heitland: So what, what is one of your strategies to get these young talents understanding that?
[00:34:45] Neil Pendle: as I said earlier, we hire talent. It doesn't... And we give them a problem to solve. most of all it comes from customers saying, "We think there's a problem here."
[00:34:56] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:34:57] Neil Pendle: and we'd like to do something about it. Quite often it comes from a commercial perspective. You know, we're spending a lot of money here. Yeah. What can we do about it? How can we mitigate that over a number of years? And then that's a problem statement. The young talent's coming in and going, "Okay, let's have a different view of this.
[00:35:15] Neil Pendle: Let's have a different approach." And we build different commercial models, and if it works, it is test and expand. that's the key. If something works, why don't we expand it to other customers? And peer review, the WaterScan customer base, we don't... When we get a customer, we don't lose them.
[00:35:33] Neil Pendle: Yeah. So we have a customers, I think our average is about 12 and a half years. I've been working with British Telecom, for 27 years. Nice. So it's, a long-term partnership, and there are a number of companies who are quite happy to share, even the ones that might compete.
[00:35:51] Jens Heitland: Mm.
[00:35:51] Neil Pendle: they're happy to share this knowledge.
[00:35:53] Neil Pendle: And so those are the sorts of things that we like, I like our talent to get involved in. Yeah. and they are, they're, they're... Because they don't sort of come with, with baggage of, of years and years of working in the sector or working in industry, they're quite happy to share and, and businesses are too.
[00:36:11] Neil Pendle: And the res- the net result is, oh, everyone gets a, a better deal
[00:36:15] Jens Heitland: Yeah. If we go back 30 years, or a bit more than 30 years, when you started the business, what was your initial thought and the reason you started the business? You started as a chemist, if I have seen it right. Yeah, that's right. How did you get from there to say, "I'm starting Waterscan
[00:36:35] Neil Pendle: as a company"?
[00:36:35] Neil Pendle: It's a great, great story. So I had a... I was a chemist, industrial chemist, and I... There was a company in Southampton who was making, spark plugs and catalytic converters. You probably don't know what that is. but y- you know, they were making car parts for the automotive industry, and he was being overcharged.
[00:36:53] Jens Heitland: Mm. A-
[00:36:54] Neil Pendle: and I, I was indignant, and I was quite a young man, and, and I was saying, "That's just wrong." And so me and this, this, the, the manager, we tried to get it, solved. We wrote to Wafort and we wrote to the water company and we, we did all this stuff, and we got nothing. We got absolutely nowhere.
[00:37:14] Neil Pendle: It was just a brick wall of administration was against us. Yeah. And, and eventually said, "We're just, we're not bothered about it and we're just gonna sort of carry on. What can we do?" And, and I said, "That's, that, that's not acceptable." So I said, "If I... I'll do it and I'll invest the time, and, because I think it's wrong and I think we could do something about this, and I'll do it all for you."
[00:37:36] Neil Pendle: They said, "If you do that, I'll sign a contract with you." And the next day, Waterscan was formed. It was as simple as that. Took us 18 months and we got them back all the money that they were owed. That's cool. and we won, but it took 18 months of quite a lot of stress as a young man. and then kind of it sort of spiraled from there with sort of reputational.
[00:37:55] Neil Pendle: It grows, doesn't it? If somebody says, "They did a good job for us," and then we get into that space, and- And it grows naturally
[00:38:04] Jens Heitland: How was it going from alone to three to five people to 10 to over time, 50, 100s? it was good. It's a shared burden.
[00:38:19] Neil Pendle: but also you could do more of the things you needed to do for the business. I've never had a problem delegating, giving people the job that I was doing. I've found that whenever somebody else has done it and they've learnt about it, it comes back better than I did it. and so my job is to find that innovation and find that new way of doing things.
[00:38:40] Neil Pendle: It's not to expand it and refine it. Yeah. I find that other people are good at that, and I'm good at pushing the boundaries.
[00:38:49] Jens Heitland: Was it always the mission to get it as big as it is today, or? No.
[00:38:53] Neil Pendle: No. We, we, we were supposed to be a small consulting business and, and that, and that was what I wanted to do.
[00:38:59] Neil Pendle: Mm-hmm. And, and, it was partly about independence, partly about size. You know, I, I, I, I don't think I'm well-suited to a large corporate working environment. Mm-hmm. And so, I like to react very quickly. I like to react very quickly to customers' requirements, so very customer-focused. like to solve problems.
[00:39:17] Neil Pendle: and so I found that in a, a smaller business, rewarding. But then Whitbread and Tescos, came in the sort of early 2000s and they said, "We've got a problem." BT, 1996, they said, "We've got a problem." And, okay, I think I can solve this problem. And when you find you think you can solve this problem- Yeah
[00:39:38] Neil Pendle: th- then it's a deeply motivation- Yeah ... 'cause you go, "Okay, I..." And they say, "Well, we're not sure." No, no, you, this- I promise you this is gonna work, and you just don't give up 'cause you know it's gonna work, and it did work. And then we sort of scaled that commercial model. and that was sort of the moment that it, that it happened.
[00:39:56] Neil Pendle: It wasn't a plan. it was listening to customers, them giving us problems, us solving it. And broadly speaking, we work in the same environment. You've got to challenge business. If you work for somebody for 12 years-
[00:40:10] Jens Heitland: Yeah ...
[00:40:10] Neil Pendle: then it's no good selling them the same product. You constantly need to be cutting your cost to make it more efficient for that company.
[00:40:18] Neil Pendle: You need to be constantly thinking about efficiencies and doing things better, and also you need to be constantly thinking about the next challenge to solve. And if you have that sort of ethos and- working methodology, then customers trust you and, over a long period of time then, it's a very good commercial model.
[00:40:36] Jens Heitland: Loo- looking at 30 years history, I, I can only imagine, at least for myself only doing this now a couple of years, there, there are like, always up and downs. What, how, what was the way you, you survived the downsides? Like, the, the difficult moments, and that can be sometimes a personal thing with family members something is happening, but it can be also externally driven down- downsides that are happening W- what gets you going?
[00:41:06] Jens Heitland: What got you going
[00:41:08] Neil Pendle: and keeps
[00:41:08] Jens Heitland: you?
[00:41:08] Neil Pendle: I was fortunate 'cause, when it was small, it wasn't so much of a problem, you know. Everything I could solve, so it was- Yeah ... an easy environment, I think. well, the problems were big- Mm ... but, you were empowered to think about it.
[00:41:23] Neil Pendle: And, I'm driven to succeed and all those things you'd expect an entrepreneur to say. But I think when you grow a little bit more, it was the team who we got together, and we solved the problem together. That collective knowledge, in any organization, is important.
[00:41:42] Neil Pendle: And, and it's, um... And people underestimate that. A, a problem, okay, we need to get Neil in to solve that problem.
[00:41:49] Jens Heitland: Right.
[00:41:49] Neil Pendle: And I think about it a different way. I need to understand the problem, and I think I'm good at doing that, but the solution is a collective thing. And often, it's most successful when you involve the customer in that solution.
[00:42:03] Neil Pendle: So you're thinking about the problem, the challenges you're dealing with, Mr. Customer, and I think I've got a way of solving that for you, and dealing with this issue. and sometimes it's hard. Sometimes you don't get it right. but, we're not a company, and I'm not a person to stand still.
[00:42:23] Neil Pendle: You've got to be pushing boundaries. If you're constantly pushing boundaries, then, more often than not, it will come good.
[00:42:31] Jens Heitland: Yeah. If, if we look into the future, l- like we discussed already, like you stepped out of the CEO role. Where do you see your company but also the industry moving in the next couple of years?
[00:42:44] Neil Pendle: Behavioral change I think is big. I think, the opportunities around data, particularly smart data, and how we can utilize that. And I don't wanna say the cliche of utilizing AI, but what we're trying to find is, issues of overconsumption or waste.
[00:43:03] Jens Heitland: Mm.
[00:43:03] Neil Pendle: And, the opportunity to do that more effectively than an individual going in and looking at a profile and looking at history and looking at the price and the tariff, automating some of those things.
[00:43:17] Neil Pendle: So we can do it at scale. And also whenever we've done these projects, it's revealed something we didn't know. COVID is a classic example. So we operate quite a lot of brewery companies, hospitality companies.
[00:43:32] Jens Heitland: Mm.
[00:43:32] Neil Pendle: And we thought we were efficient. We'd been doing water efficiency for, like, 10 years for these businesses.
[00:43:36] Neil Pendle: We were on everything. Every liter of water we thought we'd nailed down.
[00:43:40] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:43:40] Neil Pendle: Then COVID hit, and they shut down. But the consumption didn't stop.
[00:43:44] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:43:45] Neil Pendle: I go, "Well, but there's no leak. We've been to these sites. There's no leak." Yes, there was. It was small leakage. It was in areas you weren't expecting it to be, and that completely changed my perspective of what water efficiency is and how you might deploy it.
[00:44:00] Neil Pendle: And so it's more frequent, more rigorous, and more on the front foot of programs to repair, to maintain, and install good water efficiency saving equipment. And so that's been... Talk about 10% increase in water efficiency measures, and so I didn't even know that was happening.
[00:44:20] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:44:20] Neil Pendle: And so those sorts of opportunities, that's where smart data and AI can come in. It gives you things you didn't know, and that's very powerful. If you look at Europe and, and, and the broader landscape, where do you think all of that goes? If we look at climate change, I mean, we started with that.
[00:44:37] Jens Heitland: It's, it's going to be, like, more difficult in the, in the future, so we will have more droughts, I guess, at least. water scarcity will go up. What do we do- do as industry, as individuals to, to really tackle that together?
[00:44:55] Neil Pendle: Well, I think there's... First there's a realization y- y- you c- you can't control that.
[00:44:58] Neil Pendle: one of the big business rules that we've used is control the controllables. It's the things you can influence, do. and it might be influence and it might be action. but be clear about what you can do, and do it, and commit to it. Mm. Because you know there's something happening down the road which is unexpected.
[00:45:16] Neil Pendle: If we think that the pathway of climate change, is going to be smooth, and where it's gonna manifest itself most critically, then we're wrong, because we don't know what's around the corner, and that is, in essence, a business continuity and resilience issue. and I think that people don't price in, and businesses don't price in risk in this way.
[00:45:41] Neil Pendle: And so I'd say that what we need to do as both, a domestic consumer, but most importantly as a commercial consumer, is think about how they're using water. Think about risk. think about, leadership and innovation, not in terms of I need to do the thing new. There's no silver bullet to this.
[00:45:59] Neil Pendle: It's organizational. it's, ownership, and it's about understanding the risk. And then applying solutions becomes easy. you can do it on a commercial return basis. It's that simple. so I wouldn't look at this in terms of, I can predict there will be more droughts.
[00:46:21] Neil Pendle: Mm. I think the indicator is the systems are going to be less resilient. we're using more water as a society across the board, and we're dealing with it in a challenging environment. that is not going to change. The price is not going to change. It's going to increase. If you do nothing now, it will hurt you- Yeah
[00:46:44] Neil Pendle: much more in the future. The solutions are there. All it requires is a understanding and a drive in much the same way as we've done with cyber, we've done with AI, we've done with energy and carbon. The pathway has been done for us. This is the advantage with water. We might be late to the party, but, businesses have been through this before and done it successfully.
[00:47:06] Neil Pendle: Apply those things to water. Make it more of a priority. Understand that you've got a risk here that you probably don't understand, and that's that hour... The conversation with the brewer says you've got an hour. We're shutting your water off. who's the owner? and people flown in. There was a little bit of panic.
[00:47:24] Neil Pendle: Okay, that's probably... If you don't know the answer to who's dealing with that and what do we do in these scenarios, you're, you're probably saying, "I don't... Okay, I need to think about this."
[00:47:32] Jens Heitland: Yeah. Neil, thank you very much for your enthusiasm and what you do with your company. I think it's, it's a huge opportunity getting us more into thinking about water, and you do a great job in communicating that.
[00:47:49] Jens Heitland: Thank you very much for being together with me here in Belgium today.
[00:47:52] Neil Pendle: I've really enjoyed it. Thank you very much