EP268: The Real Challenge Starts After the Training Ends with Amit Kasliwal
Amit Kasliwal, founder of Dehurdle and former Ford India leader, joins Jens Heitland on networking, reinvention, AI voice simulation and practice after training.
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The Real Challenge Starts After the Training Ends
Large organizations invest heavily in training. Sales programs, leadership workshops, compliance modules, and onboarding journeys fill calendars across every region and every level. The investment is visible, measurable in hours and budgets, and easy to report upward. What happens in the weeks after a program ends receives far less attention.
In a recent conversation with Amit Kasliwal, founder of Dehurdle and former head of corporate sales for Ford in India, that quiet gap became the center of our discussion. Amit described it in plain terms. Organizing a training is rarely the difficult part. The real work begins when people return to their desks and try to apply what they heard.
During my years inside large organizations, I watched the same pattern repeat across countries and functions. A team would attend a well-designed program, leave with energy and new language, and within a month return to familiar habits. Nobody chose to forget, yet the system around them offered no space to practice. People filled the gaps with what they already knew, and over time the new behavior settled into memory while the old one continued in daily conversations.
Amit arrived at this problem through his own experience as a trainer. Clients told him he was running out of content, and the feedback made him pause. A friend from his INSEAD network suggested he look at technology. After an early version failed and the money ran out, he pivoted to an idea that still shapes his company: bringing coaching knowledge to far more people.
That idea became voice-based simulation. After a program, employees practice real conversations with an AI that plays the angry customer, the price-sensitive buyer, or the candidate across the interview table. The simulation draws on the organization's own frameworks and values, and after each session the person receives a report on how to improve the conversation. The practice happens in the language people actually use, including the mix of Hindi and English that Amit himself moves between on a single phone call.
The cultural layer interested me deeply. Amit described companies asking for support where Indian employees work under Japanese managers, or where a manager in Italy leads a junior colleague in the United Kingdom. I remember a leadership program from my corporate years that addressed a German leading teams in Russia inside a Swedish company. Three cultures sat inside every conversation, and each one shaped how a message landed.
At scale, these layers compound. A single misread exchange between cultures seems small in isolation. Repeated across hundreds of managers, it shapes trust, interpretation, and the distance between teams. Training can name the dynamic, and repeated practice gives people a chance to recognize it in the moment.
Amit uses his own simulations to work on his blind spots, including performance feedback and data-heavy conversations. He described feeling more prepared each time he returned to a difficult conversation. In his experience, confidence grows quietly through rehearsal.
Learning in organizations tends to be designed around the event. The program, the workshop, and the certificate are easy to see. The rhythm of practice that follows is harder to see, and it is often where capability is actually built or lost. Amit shared his path from Ford to founder with an openness I appreciated, and his story carries the same lesson about failure, pivots, and the willingness to begin before feeling ready.
Timecode:
00:00 Welcome to Netherlands
01:04 Networking Mindset Basics
02:14 Introduce Yourself Right
03:23 Energy and Presence
04:57 Teaching Kids by Example
07:31 Work Life as One
09:05 Leaving Corporate Behind
10:11 INSEAD and Self Awareness
12:39 Resigning After TEDx
14:12 Early Founder Survival
15:47 Finding the Startup Idea
18:10 Pivots and Building Team
19:34 Hiring for Values Fit
19:53 Hiring By Trying
20:43 Going Global Intentionally
22:56 Corporate Lessons Ford
24:56 Drive To Make Impact
27:29 One Minute Product Pitch
30:33 Use Cases And Differentiation
31:55 Growth Targets And Markets
33:35 Cultural Intelligence Feature
36:24 AI Hype Versus Real Demos
38:02 Advice For New Founders
40:43 Closing Thanks And Wrap
Guest Links:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amitkasliwalofficial/
Website: www.dehurdle.com
Transcript:
[00:00:02] Jens Heitland: Amit, welcome to the Netherlands. Great to meet you again in person and having you in the same room to record a
[00:00:09] Amit Kasliwal: podcast. Thank you, Jens, and I am pleasantly surprised with the invitation. I'm far off from India. Netherlands is now my second home and grateful for the opportunity.
[00:00:21] Jens Heitland: Yeah, and the, the good thing is, which I like very much, you brought your whole family.
[00:00:26] Jens Heitland: Like, your, your son is starting to study in the Netherlands.
[00:00:29] Amit Kasliwal: Yeah. Credit goes to my wife. I- ... I was not like this, and perhaps I would have become more casual, let my son go alone.
[00:00:38] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:00:39] Amit Kasliwal: But I think you learn from diversity, and I sometimes maybe just go with the flow and let others. So she decided we ought to go there, spend so...
[00:00:50] Amit Kasliwal: And I thought it's a good opportunity to meet some INSEADers, friends, and feel the Dutch culture.
[00:00:56] Jens Heitland: Yeah. And that's where we met. We met at an INSEAD event. Yes. I don't know, was it, like, two years ago-ish?
[00:01:01] Amit Kasliwal: Last year.
[00:01:01] Jens Heitland: Last year? Yeah. Yeah.
[00:01:02] Amit Kasliwal: Last year, Amsterdam.
[00:01:04] Jens Heitland: Yeah. And, and a key point that's m- maybe a starting point for our conversation is networking.
[00:01:10] Amit Kasliwal: Mm.
[00:01:10] Jens Heitland: I've seen you interacting with the INSEAD network, um, when I w- when, when I was there, and I was impressed how you network. Let's, let's break down how, uh, your way of thinking when it comes to networking at business events.
[00:01:27] Amit Kasliwal: Networking and business event, uh, look, I have learned the hard way. I used to commit a lot of mistake, um, introduce myself wrong way and...
[00:01:38] Amit Kasliwal: Uh, but networking fundamentally, I believe, is all about building relationship. thanks to my grandmom, my father, my mom, I've learned this skill. but in job environment, when I was in job, I think this, was lying low and I was just running in circles. But when it is push come to shove, which is when you really need it, you are an entrepreneur, you're building your own business, you have to go out and talk about it.
[00:02:12] Amit Kasliwal: so few things I learned how to fix it. one is how you introduce yourself.
[00:02:16] Jens Heitland: So how, do you introduce yourself?
[00:02:19] Amit Kasliwal: I never introduce myself as a founder. I never talk about my company. beCause you're just breaking the ice, so I usually introduce myself with the hobbies and interest I have. I start with like, "Hey, I play tennis five days a week."
[00:02:33] Amit Kasliwal: And then-
[00:02:33] Jens Heitland: they say, "What? Tennis? Are you Roger Federer?"
[00:02:37] Amit Kasliwal: Uh, but that also I have now tweaked a little bit, but whenever I used to introduce this way on a, on a virtual call with my clients, my colleagues will get... feel a little low because
[00:02:48] Jens Heitland: They don't play tennis.
[00:02:50] Amit Kasliwal: They don't play tennis. And now I say, "I love tennis-
[00:02:53] Amit Kasliwal: and I love, uh..." Followed by a bit of gym, yoga, Vipassana.
[00:02:57] Jens Heitland: Yeah. "
[00:02:58] Amit Kasliwal: Yeah, that's interesting." Then, and people is curious because they want to hear the obvious, you know, "What do you do for a living?" And then quietly, I say, "I'm a founder of tech startup." And then, and then that's how the introduction is, and I never would like to talk about as a title and a founder.
[00:03:12] Amit Kasliwal: Yeah.
[00:03:13] Jens Heitland: Yeah. So it's, it's really about creating curiosity a- around maybe a common thing, something that you're excited about, and maybe they're excited about something as well that they share.
[00:03:23] Amit Kasliwal: Absolutely. Yeah. That energy curiosity is so important. Um, otherwise there are hundreds of people in the event, and all of them are trying to meet, and those who are able to show that energy, show that curiosity, the one who will people remember after the event.
[00:03:38] Amit Kasliwal: So if you want to be one of them and carry forward, so your being, your presence, your energy is very important.
[00:03:45] Jens Heitland: Yeah. And that's- And I- ... what I remembered from that event last year. Yeah, and
[00:03:48] Amit Kasliwal: that's why, look, I
[00:03:49] Jens Heitland: That's why we're here together. That's why we are here,
[00:03:51] Amit Kasliwal: you know? So it-
[00:03:52] Jens Heitland: And we have... That's maybe interesting, um, for the listeners.
[00:03:55] Jens Heitland: We have not talked about business at all, even until today. I mean, in the preparation, we talked about your business, but before, we have zero business-
[00:04:03] Amit Kasliwal: Correct. Yeah- ... which, which is quite interesting ... we were still in touch on and off- Yeah ... through one of the WhatsApp messages- Yeah ... greetings, festival greetings- Yeah
[00:04:09] Amit Kasliwal: on LinkedIn. You're right. I remember my mentor when I was doing, uh, a jog in garden way back when I was in grade 12, and this guy is a top lawyer of my town, and he said, "Amit, it's the energy." So how's your energy? You know, where are you grounded at that moment? Mm. And I, I remember yesterday itself, I attended one of the events, and I was just checking myself, where I'm coming from.
[00:04:33] Amit Kasliwal: Am I coming from fear? Am I coming from worry? Am I coming from... Where I'm grounded- Yeah ... in that moment, where I am in that space. So I think that checking with yourself, that awareness also helps. Nobody likes boring people- ... who have lot of fear- worry. People like who are confident, successful, happy in their life, and they get attracted to- so you, be the person.
[00:04:57] Jens Heitland: how do you distill that to, your kids? Are you?
[00:05:01] Amit Kasliwal: I never, blast them for- ... mistakes. Like, we are traveling around, we are doing few wrong things, so for as simple as buying a train ticket on through an application is cheaper than a kiosk.
[00:05:19] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:05:20] Amit Kasliwal: So we are all traveling together as a family, and my son decided, let's buy it through kiosk, and it costed additional euros.
[00:05:27] Amit Kasliwal: And then later on we all reflected. But in my mind I was clear. You know, we all commit mistake. I've been committing mistakes as an entrepreneur.
[00:05:35] Jens Heitland: Yeah, every day.
[00:05:36] Amit Kasliwal: Wasted so many dollars.
[00:05:39] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:05:39] Amit Kasliwal: So that's okay. So, you know, it's confidence. So how do you, uh, you know, stay calm in pressure situations and when they are committing mistake.
[00:05:48] Amit Kasliwal: This is one of, one of the ways. And I think, uh, you don't have to really teach, teach. When they see you-
[00:05:55] Jens Heitland: Yeah ...
[00:05:55] Amit Kasliwal: uh, so I'm, I'm... I was... I'm trying if, if he can come along with some meetings or events along with me. Uh, I think, so that's, that's one of the... Just yesterday I met an entrepreneur- Uh, the, uh, the, her...
[00:06:11] Amit Kasliwal: So I met Bastian, her, Bastian's daughter, Josephine, was sitting right there in that same space.
[00:06:18] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:06:18] Amit Kasliwal: She was working around. She's getting into grade four, and she was listening to our conversation. So just be with them. The other thing is sharing, I think. I was very poor in sharing with my family.
[00:06:31] Jens Heitland: Mm.
[00:06:33] Amit Kasliwal: It's like making life my own battlefield.
[00:06:36] Amit Kasliwal: But as a leader, as a person, it's important to take everyone along. They, how they feel part of, like, yes- today morning we, I was rushing around, uh, but still I showed my LinkedIn post to my wife, "Look, this is what I posted- Mm ... about yesterday's event." And so they get a feel of my life. Uh, that's how I do it.
[00:06:58] Jens Heitland: Yeah, that's cool. I, I do the same with my daughter. She, she's eight right now. Mm. And since, I think she was four, she was... When I do podcast or some, like, mainly business calls, she's sitting somewhere in a room and, and is drawing, but she's getting all of the things through osmosis. And now she has not had formal English classes, but she understands English just because of me talking English every day.
[00:07:23] Jens Heitland: And these are the small things I just hope over time, as older she gets, as more she gets through osmosis, just being part of it.
[00:07:31] Amit Kasliwal: I think I'm picking up from your conversation, so I would con- I used to stay confused about this is work life, this is personal life- Yeah ... this is family life, this is... It, life is one.
[00:07:43] Jens Heitland: Yeah, agree. Like, I cannot-
[00:07:44] Amit Kasliwal: Yeah ...
[00:07:45] Jens Heitland: the, especially since I, I, like, built my own business, I'm not dividing anymore. Before when I was in corporate, it was that's work life, and then it's, like, break, and then it's vacation, and then it's personal life.
[00:07:58] Amit Kasliwal: Of course, you
[00:07:58] Jens Heitland: need balance. Today it's kind of... Yeah.
[00:07:59] Amit Kasliwal: You need, uh, you need to prioritize, but the, there are, these are very thin lines.
[00:08:04] Jens Heitland: For me it's more energy balance than- Yeah ... like, boundaries between work and, and, like-
[00:08:08] Amit Kasliwal: I think the more important is when you, after a hard day, how when you go back home, I would usually just grab a coffee or a tea and then- Just a sleepover and, and, and just thinking about my conversations, what could I have done, done better?
[00:08:26] Amit Kasliwal: Yeah. That's the hard part, you know, when, when coming back home. So how do you... So I think what used to work when I was going through my own transformation was, uh, reminding myself entering home that leaders take interest in others, rather making them, making themself interesting.
[00:08:42] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:08:43] Amit Kasliwal: So just, okay, that event is over now, or those meetings are over.
[00:08:46] Amit Kasliwal: Get back, you know, talk to them. How was their day, uh, their moments, their learnings, what they have done. Just be with them. That, that's very hard for a hardworking- ... super ambitious man or a woman, whatever.
[00:09:01] Jens Heitland: Yeah. Yeah. No, agree. Let, let's get to that. So you have been extremely successful in different corporations, and then you stepped out to build your own company.
[00:09:12] Jens Heitland: What was the trigger that set you into a completely different journey? Because there are a lot of people who are starting in a corporate, and they're always corporate people and are successful in their career, and you have been really successful. What was the point that made you jumping into the cold water, building y- your own company?
[00:09:32] Amit Kasliwal: So my mentor, Marcel Parker, he said, "Amit," now I had some 11 year of experience. He said, "Amit, time has come to upskill yourself." And I said, "What upskill is?" He said, "Go and talk to your wife. Ask what are your strength and weakness are." I said, "How can I do that?" "Go and talk to your friends. Go and talk to your colleagues."
[00:09:51] Amit Kasliwal: I've never done it.
[00:09:52] Jens Heitland: Yeah. "
[00:09:52] Amit Kasliwal: Do a SWOT analysis." I said, "What is this?" Because you are in your own zone, you are your, in your own judgments, and you think you are hero. And, uh, and then but I think the good about, um, myself is that I'm open to ideas. I'm a risk-taker. So I, I had a feeling I need to maybe, um, give attention to his advice, and I started looking around for some executive program, and I randomly figured out this INSEAD program, and I signed up, and I think that was the turning point of my life.
[00:10:30] Amit Kasliwal: And there are a lot of other things happen. So in, in, when, when I went to INSEAD, there was a psychological workshop which made me aware that I'm in my own judgments, my own assumption. I see what I want to see, I listen what I want to listen, and I've-- and I'm away from zillion realities. So that was a little spark which made me self-aware, which made me accepted that I'm, I'm in a gutter, I'm doing a lot of shitty stuff and not focusing on important things in my life.
[00:11:02] Jens Heitland: Hmm.
[00:11:04] Amit Kasliwal: Uh, including relationships. So I had a huge crisis around that time. So I accepted this. Now, it was easy to blame others or easy to feel victimized in this situation. Small, helpless. I was, of course, going through all this and I tried all the, uh, all the things which normally people to go do prayers and, and
[00:11:31] Amit Kasliwal: What worked for me is, is, is a wannabe coach. Uh, I reached out. Uh, I said, "I'm in difficulty. I need..." But, uh, and inside I've got a feeling that I can overcome this crisis, and I have no idea of building any business venture.
[00:11:45] Jens Heitland: Hmm.
[00:11:45] Amit Kasliwal: So I was doing good in, in my, as India head of Ford Motor Company corporate sales.
[00:11:52] Amit Kasliwal: I was hosting a lot of alumni events in my personal capacity. I started getting speaking assignments because of that, and this was all naturally happening. I was not trying to... A lot of time to try to fix and make it doesn't work, it just come naturally to you. Yeah, yeah. So I was lucky in that sense, and I was quietly working on myself, and I would cry, and it is not easy to accept that you are in shit, accept that you have to change.
[00:12:18] Amit Kasliwal: It took me three years to work on myself, and then finally, uh, when the crisis got over, things got stable in my life. And this whole word transformation intellectually I always understood, the, all the positive psychology, but never worked. But now as I worked, and this was classic change-
[00:12:36] Jens Heitland: Hmm ...
[00:12:37] Amit Kasliwal: happening around me.
[00:12:39] Amit Kasliwal: Uh, and then the TEDx talk happened, and this is a little story. I was in small town called Bhopal. It's not a town. It's a capital of, uh, Madhya Pradesh. It's a central province. I was returning back after delivering a TEDx, and my coach Mandeep was sitting. This is, um, 2nd October, 10:20 PM, and I called up my boss, "Lakshmi, I'm resigning."
[00:13:04] Amit Kasliwal: And Lakshmi was very happy because I, I have become a sort of a spoiled corporate employee because I was not toeing the line.
[00:13:12] Jens Heitland: Yeah, yeah.
[00:13:13] Amit Kasliwal: I was venturing around and wanted to become, do something. So Lakshmi was quietly happy that- ... this guy's going out. Yeah. So that's the moment, uh, I, I was assured I will...
[00:13:29] Amit Kasliwal: Uh, though it was a hefty package to leave and I had some savings, my parents were concerned, so was my wife, but I was determined-
[00:13:38] Jens Heitland: Yeah ...
[00:13:38] Amit Kasliwal: I can do something.
[00:13:40] Jens Heitland: That's most probably a, a tough starting, but I, I still remember my decision, which was similar. Going from an environment where you know the paycheck comes, doesn't matter if you work or not almost, into something that especially for everyone else, for yourself maybe you have made your mind, it was a conscious decision to step into this, but everyone around you is, "But there's no money coming in."
[00:14:03] Jens Heitland: So they often see that moment, and, and how did, how did you bring your family along in, in, in this phase?
[00:14:12] Amit Kasliwal: So I I have to use my savings. I have to give them confidence. Uh, I was working really hard and, uh, as long as their basic needs are met, they were fine. Yeah. And I think I want to acknowledge my wife as well, and my son and my parents have been quite supportive in that phase.
[00:14:32] Amit Kasliwal: It was one of the toughest phase. And as soon as I resigned, a few days I used to sleep a lot.
[00:14:39] Jens Heitland: Mm.
[00:14:40] Amit Kasliwal: And I was working from sort of trying to work from home. I said, "I'll kill myself this way. I need to figure it out." So soon I booked one of the fanciest, uh, um, co-working table.
[00:14:51] Jens Heitland: Mm.
[00:14:52] Amit Kasliwal: I used to dream that one day I, I want to have office here, and they're the same place I booked a table.
[00:14:57] Jens Heitland: Nice.
[00:14:57] Amit Kasliwal: And I would go every day dressed up, but I was not... I was all over the place still. I was talking around. I, I, as I reflect upon, it's... Yeah, so it was a tough phase. Uh, family did support it. Savings helped me. And there was a moment when I was almost finished my saving and I... This is, like, literally bankruptcy.
[00:15:18] Amit Kasliwal: I have zero money.
[00:15:19] Jens Heitland: Mm.
[00:15:20] Amit Kasliwal: And that time, you know, it's like when you are honest and intentional, people come and support you.
[00:15:26] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:15:26] Amit Kasliwal: So I got, uh, a good amount of training program from a company and... Which gave me a runway for three, four months. So we... Not everything you can fix, you know? Certain thing you just focus on the actions which you are taking on a daily basis and let then things happen on its own.
[00:15:42] Amit Kasliwal: There are people who are noticing your intention, your honesty.
[00:15:45] Jens Heitland: Mm.
[00:15:46] Amit Kasliwal: This happened.
[00:15:47] Jens Heitland: So how did you then find the business idea what then ended up to be the company that you're leading today?
[00:15:55] Amit Kasliwal: Look, I got awareness that people development is something which I want to spend time on.
[00:16:02] Jens Heitland: Mm.
[00:16:03] Amit Kasliwal: And I started as a trainer and speaker, but I soon realized that, uh, I'm not a top honcho retired CEO and people will pay millions of dollars- Yeah
[00:16:14] Amit Kasliwal: to listen to me. I'm not Peter Drucker or, uh, or I'm not a marketing guru.
[00:16:20] Jens Heitland: Not yet.
[00:16:21] Amit Kasliwal: Yeah. So, and then, uh, I was getting feedback from clients that I'm running out of content in trainings and workshops.
[00:16:28] Jens Heitland: Mm.
[00:16:29] Amit Kasliwal: Which made me pause that there's something which is, which I need to fix it. And, um, that time one of the INSEAD friend hinted me that enough and think about technology.
[00:16:44] Amit Kasliwal: And then that's how I, the, the whole journey of formal startup started back in 2022, where I raised a little money and committed all sorts of mistakes trying to w- go to VC early and-
[00:16:57] Jens Heitland: Mm ...
[00:16:58] Amit Kasliwal: trying to raise too much of money without any solid plan. I think you need a, just a small start. You know, you just need to go from this step to another.
[00:17:06] Amit Kasliwal: You, you just need that little money.
[00:17:07] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:17:08] Amit Kasliwal: So, uh, the initial plan was just to raise 10,000, even 5,000 sort of euros to start with. And- Mm ... and that got into some or €50,000 to start with. So that's how the start was. And then I started building around, and I was super confident I can pull this on its own- Yeah
[00:17:33] Amit Kasliwal: but, uh, I failed, and I was getting signals from people, freelancers whom I was working initially with advices- Yeah ... but I was ignoring those signals. And then I was sitting here in my office everything has failed. I burned all the money. And again, I went back to my investors, uh, pivoted, uh, some tweaking, and luckily this time I tied up with the same coach who has helped me- Mm
[00:17:59] Amit Kasliwal: in a crisis, and now he's become a certified coach. And I thought, you know, how can I democratize the knowledge of a coach and bring it to life?
[00:18:07] Jens Heitland: Mm.
[00:18:08] Amit Kasliwal: So that's how it started. And then subsequent pivot, pivot, building team. I think it took a while. It- it's breakthrough idea, which has got a potential to build a unicorn, it takes a while.
[00:18:19] Jens Heitland: Yeah. And the, the interesting part of that, uh, meeting you today and knowing what you have built, it, it sounds like, yeah, there was, like, a straight path to success, but it's, it's never that, the case. No,
[00:18:31] Amit Kasliwal: no,
[00:18:31] Jens Heitland: no. It's always ups and downs, and most of the time it's more down than up.
[00:18:34] Amit Kasliwal: More down, yeah, yeah- Mm ... 99% down.
[00:18:37] Amit Kasliwal: And but, but, but the down also teaches you and accepting and, and I think I was also lucky I was able to build a great team in the journey. I see a lot of people doing alone.
[00:18:47] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:18:47] Amit Kasliwal: And they are unable to build teams. So how you build team, attract team. As, as, as a founder, you need to be like a magnet, how you attract.
[00:18:54] Amit Kasliwal: So I think lucky that now I've got a great team, and it is a team now. It- while I started, it's no more I now, it's we now.
[00:19:03] Jens Heitland: Yeah. So you are also feeling responsible not just for yourself and your family, also for their families and-
[00:19:09] Amit Kasliwal: Their family- Everyone ... and they are feeling responsible equally.
[00:19:12] Jens Heitland: Exactly.
[00:19:12] Amit Kasliwal: The- we are all excited together. But it's a journey, and I've seen- Yeah ... a few of my friends trying on their own. I think that is also one of my strength of trusting others and trying build. Of course, in that also I committed mistakes in choosing the... No, I would not say wrong people, it's about the fit at, at that stage.
[00:19:34] Amit Kasliwal: Yeah,
[00:19:34] Jens Heitland: yeah.
[00:19:34] Amit Kasliwal: At that stage you need people who are super talented, yet super flexible, and your values need to be aligned-
[00:19:40] Jens Heitland: Yeah,
[00:19:40] Amit Kasliwal: agreed ... when you're building a zero to one journey, that initial two, three, four, five, seven people.
[00:19:46] Jens Heitland: Mm.
[00:19:46] Amit Kasliwal: Values needs to be super aligned.
[00:19:48] Jens Heitland: How did you choose the people with the value part?
[00:19:53] Jens Heitland: What was your way of finding them?
[00:19:55] Amit Kasliwal: Um, you got to try. You know, honestly speaking, you can't judge someone in interview. I mean, you, you get all sorts of ideas, but you've got to just give them a try a few months.
[00:20:07] Jens Heitland: Hmm.
[00:20:07] Amit Kasliwal: And we changed our, uh, hiring policy earlier. It was two months of notice period. We said we'll kill ourself if we have two month of notice period because we-
[00:20:17] Jens Heitland: Yeah
[00:20:17] Amit Kasliwal: when you're building early, it's about trying, failing fast, learning fast.
[00:20:21] Jens Heitland: Hmm.
[00:20:21] Amit Kasliwal: So in that sense, it's about giving people a chance, and we have given people a lot of chances, and within that some people shine out, and then you, you go along. And there are people whom you cannot connect-
[00:20:36] Jens Heitland: Yeah ...
[00:20:36] Amit Kasliwal: whether they, they, they have their own ideas, your values are not aligned, they, they choose their own path.
[00:20:43] Jens Heitland: So your, your, your business started in India, but it's now a global business. How, how do, do you connect it to, to, to a global perspective? So you have Indian roots. You grown up in India and still live in India. How do you connect the startup ecosystem of what you're building to the wider world, and finding clients, finding customers in the different parts of the world?
[00:21:10] Amit Kasliwal: No, as I said, my... When I meet people, I don't meet for business.
[00:21:14] Jens Heitland: Hmm.
[00:21:15] Amit Kasliwal: Like in this visit also, I'm going to make at least 50, 100 friends, and, and not every friendship is about business.
[00:21:22] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:21:23] Amit Kasliwal: And that's my strength. And, and, uh, I've been actively participating in international events since two, three years now, and build a large number of friends all over the world, and I'm very ambitious in that sense.
[00:21:38] Amit Kasliwal: And this is a moment, you know, we are all living in a connected world with technologies available, resources available you can build. So but at the same time, I realized that I was trying to reach out to people virtually- Whether it was honest outside of India but was not working out.
[00:21:58] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:21:59] Amit Kasliwal: It doesn't bring that seriousness.
[00:22:02] Amit Kasliwal: You cannot exchange that energy. People also take you lightly. So what I've realized that be intentional. You can't go all over the world just like this. Prioritize your market. Maybe pick if you have, as we have limited resources, pick one or two market-
[00:22:21] Jens Heitland: Yeah ...
[00:22:21] Amit Kasliwal: plan to be there. And it just coincidentally happened that my son decided, and then I said, "It's a good plan"-
[00:22:30] Jens Heitland: Yeah
[00:22:30] Amit Kasliwal: to, to also explore Dutch as a market and, and see. And the trends are extremely encouraging. So I would say virtual won't work in my experience. It might work in some other context. Choose one or two market, reach out to friends, physically visit there, have some introductory meeting, and that's how gradually built it.
[00:22:56] Jens Heitland: Yeah. Is that something you learned as well when you worked in Ford? Or h- how does that connect, like, your knowledge and the ways of learning that you had in Ford to today?
[00:23:06] Amit Kasliwal: There's so much learning. I still remember the managing director of Ford, and I would get inspired how he would walk into office with all the curiosity, with all the pressure and the stress and the responsibilities.
[00:23:21] Amit Kasliwal: And every desk he will go and come and listen to you and remember every conversations. So I always wanted to be that person.
[00:23:29] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:23:29] Amit Kasliwal: So, and then there are so many amazing bosses whom I worked, whom, with whom I picked up some qualities of team management, um, problem-solving. Ford ex- I mean, all these experience have really helped me.
[00:23:47] Amit Kasliwal: Like in, I used to handle dealer networks, so if I get an opportunity to appoint a channel partner in any of the countries, it, I know- Mm ... one, two, three, four steps. I myself done door-to-doors selling in one of the largest media company in India when I started.
[00:24:04] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:24:05] Amit Kasliwal: So I ha- I would randomly walk into offices trying to sell, uh, space in the newspaper.
[00:24:12] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:24:12] Amit Kasliwal: So I'm so comfortable with that. So this learning-
[00:24:16] Jens Heitland: That's one of the best trainings you can do. If you do door-to-door sales, then- Door-to-door
[00:24:20] Amit Kasliwal: sale ...
[00:24:20] Jens Heitland: you survive everything.
[00:24:21] Amit Kasliwal: Yeah, you survive everything. And then there was a moment in my career where because of global meltdown, my job was getting chopped off profile, and I was shunted from a sexy marketing role to a analyst role which is dead.
[00:24:36] Amit Kasliwal: So that also- made me learn that there will be tough moments, failures, rejections- Hmm ... and you have to be prepared and then just hold yourself, pass the time, and come out stronger. So credit to all that learning, all that confidence, all that exposure
[00:24:56] Jens Heitland: What, what is the, the energy behind all of this? So one part, if, if we look at, at your corporate career, it's, it's not a normal career.
[00:25:07] Jens Heitland: I mean, you have done an extreme sprint, if we call it, to, to be in top positions, and now you're literally repeating the same thing for you- for yourself. What is the energy, the flame behind of that?
[00:25:20] Amit Kasliwal: Look at this contextually. You know, when I was doing my management and MB early days, working multinational was sexy.
[00:25:30] Amit Kasliwal: You know, it was cool to try that. And, and I'm, I'm a simple, hardworking person, I think, and people spot you, so just being lucky at times, getting into it. One of the sales call actually got me a fancy job as well-
[00:25:50] Jens Heitland: Hmm ...
[00:25:51] Amit Kasliwal: and the person liked it. And now we are living in, in an era where you can do a lot more, you know, when, where we- if you look at the, look at the landscape of world, uh, earlier it was all about colonization and the power was in land and soldiers.
[00:26:16] Amit Kasliwal: And then there was era of corporates where it was about shareholders and profits. Hmm. The DuPont is the one which is, which has got the oldest legacy, 200 plus.
[00:26:27] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:26:28] Amit Kasliwal: And now we are living in an era of entrepreneurship, started with Bill Gates and then followed by Mark Zuckerberg. So from power from soldier, land, to profits, to now significance, making a difference.
[00:26:43] Amit Kasliwal: So we are into that phase, and the energy behind is how you can make a difference to the world we are living in. We all have short time to, to be present in the world, and if your ideas, if your thoughts, if your work can make a difference, bring a value to others' life, that's the energy. I think that's...
[00:27:07] Amit Kasliwal: Sometime we get so close and tied to the idea, we get so stressed in this situation. So what hack help me is the higher picture, you know. I'm not situation. I'm there to make a difference, and I'm, I'm just one of the coordinators, and I'll keep doing it, which is in my control.
[00:27:27] Jens Heitland: Yeah, that's beautiful. Let's talk a little bit more about what you do with your business.
[00:27:32] Jens Heitland: So if you explain that to someone who has not been connected to you, does not know your story, does not know what you do, what, how would you describe that to someone?
[00:27:44] Amit Kasliwal: Can I do it right now?
[00:27:45] Jens Heitland: Of course.
[00:27:46] Amit Kasliwal: Quick one-minute pitch?
[00:27:47] Jens Heitland: Yes.
[00:27:48] Amit Kasliwal: And this also I learned because as an entrepreneur, as a business leader, any job, you know, storytelling is very important.
[00:27:55] Amit Kasliwal: Yeah. So I, we, we fixed it. I learned the hard way. So it's very simple. Companies organize and invest a lot of money and time in training programs. But organizing a training is not the challenge. Challenge is after the training, how do people learn? How do they practice, apply the learning from training?
[00:28:17] Amit Kasliwal: That's a challenge.
[00:28:18] Jens Heitland: Hmm.
[00:28:18] Amit Kasliwal: That is a problem we solve. So how you do that? Well, you have sales training, you have after sales training, you have behavioral trainings, you have compliance training, you onboard people, managerial trainings. After that, what we can create is cust- so create is customized AI voice-based simulation.
[00:28:37] Amit Kasliwal: So you carry on with your meeting and post-training you give this tool to your people. So for example, if it's a sales training, B2B sales training, and you're teaching them how to handle objections or, or grow or grow your client, uh, business-
[00:28:52] Jens Heitland: Hmm ...
[00:28:53] Amit Kasliwal: give them, uh, this simulation where the AI will become the angry customer or the customer who's price sensitive, and your employee has to practice real time the way we are speaking right now.
[00:29:04] Amit Kasliwal: Yeah,
[00:29:04] Jens Heitland: yeah.
[00:29:04] Amit Kasliwal: And after the practice, which is in your language, it could be Run- Dutch, French, German, Japanese, any language. You get a report. As an e- uh, as an employee, I get a report where, how can I improve this conversation? Uh, so very simple. Uh, it's a post-training tool with a lot of applications.
[00:29:24] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:29:24] Amit Kasliwal: You're able to understood now, you know, about my product?
[00:29:27] Jens Heitland: Well, what, what I love about that is in, in the end it's the applied knowledge in an organization that makes the individual and the organization successful. So if you know the theory and you don't use it, doesn't help the company and doesn't help you.
[00:29:41] Jens Heitland: If you, if you get a training about sales, but you don't do it, then it doesn't help. So for, for me, you're, you're literally building the bridge so that it is implemented with this as well as a, as a platform. And what I love what, what you do is, is the voice part because there are a lot of tools. Like I, I come from big corporate where it was like text-based or boring, let's call it boring.
[00:30:08] Jens Heitland: And now with, with the possibilities of what you have built is, is, is a voice interaction, like a normal conversation. So let, let's say I could teach someone to do, to learn how to do a podcast wi- with, with a tool like yours where I give the training program, I, I give them the specs and, and how you would do a perfect podcast, and then they ba- basically could teach themselves with it or keep it alive.
[00:30:33] Amit Kasliwal: No, you are... And, and as we are going around, around and speaking to clients, we... Clients are coming up with interesting use cases- Yeah ...
[00:30:40] Jens Heitland: like
[00:30:40] Amit Kasliwal: interviewing skills for managers. Now they certify manager how to take interview, but still they're not prepared.
[00:30:46] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:30:46] Amit Kasliwal: So the AI become the candidate, and you are now- Yeah
[00:30:49] Amit Kasliwal: taking interview. So you are absolutely right. And the, the, what best about our product, our product is being compared with LinkedIn Learning role plays.
[00:30:57] Jens Heitland: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:30:58] Amit Kasliwal: Now that's a huge comparison. Put a lot of pressure on us when clients talk about we have, but we have nailed it. Uh, so the, the... And, and this is not what I say, our client says that the zero lag communication, the conversation is so natural and effortless.
[00:31:15] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:31:16] Amit Kasliwal: And that our tool can be deeper contextualized to organization values, frameworks, exactly the way they want their people to communicate.
[00:31:24] Jens Heitland: Yeah. And I think that's the key part because people that, that hear, "Ah, it's an AI tool," everyone thinks, ah, it's AI generated from the internet or whatever. What I understood when we talked last time, it is, it is literally, let's say I have a training and that's the framework of the training, including all the details that I want the people to do.
[00:31:45] Jens Heitland: That's basically the input, and that's what's, what's the Training Rhythm. It's not the internet and any random knowledge, right?
[00:31:51] Amit Kasliwal: Absolutely. Yeah. This is the way you want.
[00:31:54] Jens Heitland: Yeah. W- w- with this, what, what is your future perspective? Where do you want the business to be, let's say, in five years from now?
[00:32:03] Amit Kasliwal: I can't comment on five years honestly, but two years I, I see easily doing Perhaps 70 to $100 million-
[00:32:15] Jens Heitland: Yeah
[00:32:15] Amit Kasliwal: of revenue.
[00:32:16] Jens Heitland: And which countries do you believe are in strongest need of what, what, what you do?
[00:32:22] Amit Kasliwal: Dubai, Singapore, Netherlands, South Africa- Yeah ... and India. I
[00:32:29] Jens Heitland: mean, India alone is a huge market.
[00:32:31] Amit Kasliwal: India alone is a huge market, but cycles of B2B are long.
[00:32:36] Jens Heitland: Yeah. I think everywhere, I guess, or?
[00:32:39] Amit Kasliwal: Everywhere long, uh, but not to judge any market.
[00:32:44] Amit Kasliwal: Every market- Nobody's
[00:32:45] Jens Heitland: listening.
[00:32:47] Amit Kasliwal: Every market teaches you, help you better your product. Uh, India is, of course, our home, home country, and its focus will be there, but this is how it is.
[00:32:58] Jens Heitland: But I, I think there's, there's a point to that. If, if you have this different points in the international landscape with the different cultures, your, your product, while you grow and, and implement it in different cultures and different coun- companies, you will build it so that it will fit an international perspective, and then you can still narrow it down.
[00:33:20] Jens Heitland: That's more maybe the Dutch culture, the German culture, the Indian culture. So there may be functionalities, I have no idea, just guessing. There, there might be market specific, and specifically obviously the content, but as well the interaction with the tool. I don't know.
[00:33:35] Amit Kasliwal: Look, so devil is in the detail- The context, the, the clarity of the context, depth of the context will decide how the tool is going to perform.
[00:33:45] Amit Kasliwal: Yeah. So this can be contextualized super to not just that country, to the organization. The other interesting feature which we have is cultural intelligence. So we are getting query from Suzuki. There are a lot of Indian managers, Indian youngster- Mm ... younger employees- Mm ... who struggle with Japanese managers.
[00:34:04] Amit Kasliwal: And while there's a work context, but there's also cultural context. Yeah. Or, or we are getting query from another large company based out of UK that we have a UK manager interacting with someone junior in Singapore, or a manager in I- Italy interacting with someone junior in UK. Yeah. So apart from the, the work context, people are loving the cultural intelligence also.
[00:34:30] Jens Heitland: That's huge because I still remember when I was in a leadership position in a large corporation, we had, like, a, a training where we got to know how is it when you're in a Swedish company as a German and leading people in Russia. You can imagine it's like three different cultures. You have the company culture, you have your own culture, and you have your employee culture or team member culture, and all of that plays a role in, in, in this.
[00:34:54] Amit Kasliwal: You're absolutely right, and if there's a tool which after doing practice for five, 10 minutes, it gives you a report, make you aware, and I've, I've practiced myself. You know, I have my own blind spots. Yeah. Like, I, I struggle in giving performance feedback to my team. I struggle in too much of complex data conversations, so I practice my own simulation and I get better.
[00:35:16] Amit Kasliwal: And whenever I get report, okay, you, you missed this thing or you should communicate this sentence this way, and when I'm doing next time, I'm more prepared.
[00:35:24] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:35:25] Amit Kasliwal: I'm feeling more confident.
[00:35:26] Jens Heitland: Are you then using it in different languages for yourself as well, or how do you use it for yourself?
[00:35:32] Amit Kasliwal: I use it in my local language, Hindi and English, which is, which is the language, but this is available in all the international languages- Yeah
[00:35:39] Amit Kasliwal: right from, right from Dutch to, to-
[00:35:43] Jens Heitland: Now I'm, I'm just curious because when w- before we started recording, you, you had a conversation on the phone and you switched between Hindi and English in one conversation.
[00:35:51] Amit Kasliwal: Yeah, so in fact, our tool has got capability- Yeah ... that, uh, if I'm doing combination of English and the local language-
[00:35:58] Jens Heitland: Yeah
[00:35:58] Amit Kasliwal: the tool picks it up.
[00:36:00] Jens Heitland: That's cool.
[00:36:00] Amit Kasliwal: You don't have to keep speaking the same language.
[00:36:03] Jens Heitland: B- b- because the interesting thing, especially when, when you're multi l- language and, and your team is multi-language as well, then y- some phrases you always use English because that's the easier way, and some phrases you use the local language- That's right
[00:36:17] Jens Heitland: because that's- Yeah ... cultural, more applicable to something specific.
[00:36:21] Amit Kasliwal: Yeah, tool picks it up effortlessly.
[00:36:23] Jens Heitland: That's cool. So w- with, with this What, what is your perspective on society talking about AI and the impact of AI and the impact of learning? There are a lot of people, what I hear at least, that they say, "I can learn everything with AI.
[00:36:42] Jens Heitland: I don't need any other tools. I don't need any other trainers anymore." What's your perspective on that?
[00:36:48] Amit Kasliwal: Yesterday only I got this feedback. Every time I get feedback when we start the conversation- Mm ... because when it comes to AI, people can't think beyond Claude or- Yeah. ... or ChatGPT and that interface, and they are in, "Oh, we are using this, it's lovely, you know, it's my secretary, it's my..."
[00:37:03] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:37:03] Amit Kasliwal: So we keep hearing this, but when they experience the demo of the product, "Oh, no, this is different. Oh, no, I was, I was..." Because that's the reference point they're coming from.
[00:37:15] Jens Heitland: Yeah, yeah.
[00:37:16] Amit Kasliwal: So, so the only way is give them a demo. Yesterday itself, uh, I did not gave a demo. I just s- created a simulation and then handed over my laptop to them, and they did it and when they were dy- doing it them- themselves, "Oh, this is cool, man."
[00:37:37] Amit Kasliwal: Yeah. So the best thing is give them an experience, and when you, when they experience, then they realize the power of... Look, so those are big daddies of the world. They want- they have a different, uh, vision, how they want to structure their businesses. Our is a very deep, very specialized, very niche solution, which is very deep.
[00:37:58] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:37:59] Amit Kasliwal: And people are loving it. Decision-makers are loving it.
[00:38:02] Jens Heitland: From everything that you have learned building your business with all the different struggles up till the point today, what would you recommend people that are in the same situation that you were in a, let's say, let's call it comfortable corporate job, stepping out and building something that you dream of.
[00:38:22] Jens Heitland: What would you recommend them to do and figure it out?
[00:38:27] Amit Kasliwal: Very difficult to recommend. Um, I think in my learning, what has worked for me is being open to the higher value. Like we, as an entrepreneur or as a person, you, you fall in love with the idea, and you get fixated with the idea.
[00:38:45] Jens Heitland: Mm.
[00:38:46] Amit Kasliwal: Idea is an idea till it is executed.
[00:38:49] Amit Kasliwal: So what has helped me is the higher value, people development technology. Anything below this is okay with me because w- b- because now the magic is with team.
[00:39:00] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:39:00] Amit Kasliwal: So we have pivoted from what I started to now, it's a huge pivot. Yesterday I showed it to one of the, Suzanne I met, and she said, "Amit, what you started with coaching and now the tool is AI voice-based simulation-
[00:39:11] Amit Kasliwal: complete different. What is this, man?" I said, "You know, we've, we learned, we tried. It was not scaling." Yeah. "We had to pivot. If we would not have pivoted, we would have become bankrupt."
[00:39:20] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:39:20] Amit Kasliwal: So what has worked for me is the high value. Uh, I also learned y- you get emotional. Entrepreneurship is all about profits and money and scale- Yeah, yeah
[00:39:29] Amit Kasliwal: and you can't run. You, so the higher value which is, so for example, you are fixated by solving, let's say a energy problem of, or you have a solution around battery or something. Think of mobility as a solution-
[00:39:43] Jens Heitland: Yeah ...
[00:39:43] Amit Kasliwal: or as a space within that. So that gives you a flexibility and a freedom to play around, experiment with your idea, pivot.
[00:39:50] Amit Kasliwal: This is one. Second thing is, uh, your ability to build team. You can go as much, but if you're able to build a strong, equally committed, visionary, talented team, they bring in their diversity, their perspective, their energy. I think these two, and the third is, of course, courage and showing up. Calculations don't work, you know?
[00:40:16] Amit Kasliwal: Excel sheet calculations. You have to make it happen. You have to believe it's happening. it's execution. So a lot of people I see, they, plan and then they think, and then it's got potential, and then they get feedback, "No, this won't work." And then they never start. Half a year later
[00:40:32] Jens Heitland: they still
[00:40:32] Amit Kasliwal: think.
[00:40:33] Amit Kasliwal: They're never ready. They're never ready.
[00:40:34] Jens Heitland: Yeah.
[00:40:35] Amit Kasliwal: I was never ready for this podcast, but I'm still showing up.
[00:40:39] Jens Heitland: And you do good.
[00:40:40] Amit Kasliwal: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:40:43] Jens Heitland: Now with this, thank you very much for spending the time coming to the, to The Hague and doing the podcast with me. It was fantastic, and I'm looking forward to interview you in two to five years again and see where, where you went, if you pivoted again or if you, like, reached the global scale, and so I'm looking forward to that.
[00:41:02] Jens Heitland: Thank you very much for the time coming to
[00:41:05] Amit Kasliwal: the Netherlands. I also want to acknowledge you, Jens. What you are doing is incredible. Every conversation is important. Like, and every conversation is a recreation of your own thought, so this podcast has given me energy. I'm, I, I don't walk around so much in my country as I'm doing here because-
[00:41:25] Amit Kasliwal: but what you're doing is incredible. Uh, grateful for this opportunity. Thank you again.
[00:41:30] Jens Heitland: Thank you.